Granite base

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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I have 3 M3x bases, but the granite does not separate from the Aluminum base. Like the new HRS Nimbus Couplers where the polymer pads are bonded to the aluminum midsection, i suspect the Granite is bonded to the aluminum frame.

This seems similar to what Andy Payor (who uses HRS, btw) appears to have done with his latest Lyra speakers...aluminum clam shell, with an extremely dense polymer bond in between the clam shells.
 

jackelsson

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Dec 1, 2013
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Here's the picture I promised. In my case the granite actually only lies on top of the aluminium without any other layer or adhesive inbetween. Gravity works magic here on some 28kg of granite.

IMG_6176_Granit_Alu_1000px.jpg

Front plate to hide the pressure hoses behind still missing...
 

jackelsson

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I saw what you wrote previously and could probably find a single sheet of 2cm aluminum but it could be difficult. So I wasn't sure if you stacked thinner sheets. Intuitively, a single sheet seems preferable.
Hi bazelio, to be honest, I couldn't really get hold of a thick sheet of alu somewhere around the corner either. Had to order it online. And incidentally spend quite some time and sweat afterwards to sand down the sides to remove the pretty deep marks from the cutting to size process. But as a positive thing this gave quite a nice brushed metal surface to the sides. And the top side of cast aluminium is smooth like a mirror anyway - which is necessary to get a nice contact to the granite. The aluminium sheet is ca. 16kg, the Nero Assoluto on top ca. 28kg.

That aside, did you do any comparisons to maple butcher block? Typically we'd use 7.5cm maple as an alternative.
It's been a while since I experimented with wood as an audio base under my record player. Never used a butcher block or the famous Ikea Aptitlik bamboo chopping board though. The latter was quite a topic as a base on German audio forums for a while. But my success with wood was somewhat limited, I often ended up with some sort of audible coloration. So I finally gave up on it, at least as a base for a turntable.
 

bazelio

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Very nice, jackelsson. I guess one other question is what type of aluminum. The HRS M3X says they use "aircraft aluminum" which is likely either 2024 or 7035. Below is an online distributor that would charge about $350 USD for (in inches) a 24x24x0.75 plate of either.

EDIT: I found some reference material indicating "aircraft grade aluminum" generally refers to the alloy 6061 T6. (This despite aircraft using 7075 apparently).

http://www.onlinemetals.com/productguides/aluminumguide.cfm
 
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XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Here's the picture I promised. In my case the granite actually only lies on top of the aluminium without any other layer or adhesive inbetween. Gravity works magic here on some 28kg of granite.

View attachment 39090

Front plate to hide the pressure hoses behind still missing...

Great pic there. You don't need to spend 1000's on isolation. I may try and source some aluminium at some stage to go under my granite slabs.
 

Legolas

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Nice. I have used Thick marble for my speakers stands and it works a treat. I think your logic is different materials = different resonances = dissipation? I can see how that would work. My only reservation on your granite and aluminium composite is, even on a milling machine it is unlikely to be perfectly flat. If you then sit the two materials on top with no plastic or film between, I would hazard a guess they are not contacting over the whole face, it is almost an impossibility to do that, as the material won't bend to suit. Maybe a thin layer of varnish or something to fill in the micro gap?

Only guessing, but though I would throw it out there. Good luck.
 

bazelio

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I'm also thinking a very light adhesive to bond the surfaces is a good idea. Silicone or other polymer; perhaps this:

Spray-Adhesive-11oz-325x421.jpg
 

Legolas

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Indeed, but I bet if you tap the top plate (aluminium) it will have some ring, even though it is thick and dense. IMO the best way to dissipate vibration (as energy) is to absorb it. A dense structure will absorb more I guess than say wood, and possibly lower the vibration in frequency. So a thin plate would rung at a high frequency and a dense plate would ring less, but at a lower frequency. Get my thoughts?

Thus in my mind, to rid yourself of vibrations, you need a composite. I used to repair boats, and on timber boats if you hit them they had a wooden ring. If you did the same to a modern yacht hull, well, dead, nothing. That hull is a composite of fibreglass and core material then another sheet on the inside.

So a thin layer of silicon will contact your sheets over the whole surface, and add anther deadening layer to make it like the modern boat hull, dead. Which is exactly what you want.

My own DIY speaker stands are thick marble, sat on tiles and concrete floor. But between the marble base to the floor I put some sorbethane tape. Then on the top of the stand I put rubber doughnuts, then the speakers sit on those. I tried all sorts of solid feet, rubber, wood, cork, you name it. But I think a combination of materials works for my situation. When I had solid marble straight to the floor, and no doughnuts, I could feel the bass energy coming into the marble stands. Now, there is nothing at all, no matter how loud I play them.

Good luck!
 

bazelio

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Yeah, constrained layer damping, essentially. Question is - what should the middle damping layer be and how thick.
 

analogsa

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Apr 15, 2017
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Here's the picture I promised. In my case the granite actually only lies on top of the aluminium without any other layer or adhesive inbetween. Gravity works magic here on some 28kg of granite.

Front plate to hide the pressure hoses behind still missing...


Sorry for the off-topic question: in the corners you have something similar?

effbe.JPG

What is your intended resonant frequency including the load? Thanks.
 

Legolas

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Yeah, constrained layer damping, essentially. Question is - what should the middle damping layer be and how thick.

I would suggest 1.5mm. If you had too much, imagine like an angel cake, all wobbly (extreme version of too much layer thickness). What you are after is a fabulous contact and a dead surface sonically. Slate is layers of the same material but sandwiched in softer material as a natural sandwich, created under intense pressure. You are after this kind of sandwich.:)
 

bazelio

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I would suggest 1.5mm. If you had too much, imagine like an angel cake, all wobbly (extreme version of too much layer thickness). What you are after is a fabulous contact and a dead surface sonically. Slate is layers of the same material but sandwiched in softer material as a natural sandwich, created under intense pressure. You are after this kind of sandwich.:)

Yep! And without an adhesive, it's easy to experiment with different options and tune to ear. I have easy access to 50A or 60A durometer silicone sheet stock at 0.75mm, 1.5mm, 2.25mm. To start, perhaps I'll try 0.75mm, 60A and 1.5mm, 50A?
 

bazelio

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Looking at the data below, intuitively, it seems ineffective to use a middle silicone damping layer which covers the entire surface area of the top and bottom layers. Back to US units, if we build an 18"x12" (216 in2) platform, and assume 50 lbs of granite and 60 lbs from a component or moderately sized TT on top, then we're only applying approx 0.5 lbs/in2 and getting near zero compression of the silicone sheet. If we were to target 20-30% compression, then we'd want to calculate appropriate surface area and cut down the silicone sheet into appropriately sized strips place around perimeter, or square pads placed in the corners, etc. The entire surface area of the top and bottom layer no longer make contact, but I can't think of a reason now that they must. Thoughts?

Screen Shot 2018-03-06 at 2.37.46 PM.jpg
 

cjf

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Nov 19, 2012
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I went with 2.5" thick PA Bluestone slabs for my Amp stands. They weigh about 75lbs a piece. Very pleased with the outcome and all for $50 total including the Herbie Audio Labs Spikes. Dead as a stone when wrapped with knuckle or anything else for that matter. :D
 

jackelsson

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Sorry for the off-topic question: in the corners you have something similar?

View attachment 39106

What is your intended resonant frequency including the load? Thanks.

Hi, yes these are also air springs / air suspension. Here's an older picture without the metal frame around them, which is purely for aesthetics:

_MG_6125_RRG-air-suspension_800px.jpg

There are various other manufacturers for these absorbers. Well known in the audio world are for example the ones from the American manufacturer Fabreeka. Thomas Schick uses them as suspension in his modded Commonwealth turntable.

In regard to the ideal resonance frequency, now, ideally it would be well below 5 Hz, the lower the better. But the resonance frequency is dependant on the load of the spring, and unfortunately I cannot put the ca. 130 kg necessary for four of these air springs onto my rack. Together with the additional 50kg of weight of the rack itself plus the audio gear this wouldn't work too well with the structure of my floor. I've never properly measured it but with a current load of ca. 90 kg on four air springs I reckon that it's at the moment more in the area of 10 Hz. But even like this it's still with a clearly positive audible effect.
 
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jackelsson

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2013
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I would suggest 1.5mm. If you had too much, imagine like an angel cake, all wobbly (extreme version of too much layer thickness). What you are after is a fabulous contact and a dead surface sonically. Slate is layers of the same material but sandwiched in softer material as a natural sandwich, created under intense pressure. You are after this kind of sandwich.:)
I would suggest to try it without anything inbetween first and take it from there. Just metal and stone pressed against each other are already quite impressive in killing resonnances...

If you introduce a relatively thick middle layer it might work quite well also, but it is a different game then. It is then no longer alu and granite dampening each other but instead a rubber/silicone/... layer dampening the other two. Might or might not work. If you try it out by all means please post your experiance here.
 

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