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Thread: Top Wing Seiryu arrives at Believe High Fidelity

  1. #171
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Perhaps Tang has had a chance to put more hours on his Top Wing RS cartridge. If so, can he report on any changes to the sound? I do not know if the cartridge is set up optimally, and perhaps more experimentation with loading and impedance settings will lead to improved sound. Or it may not. It is a worthwhile discussion to be had, and we would all learn something about the importance of these parameters to the design of this particular cartridge.

    I just wish Believe High Fidelity had sent Tang a Private Message to discuss these issues and offer his advice behind the scenes. Tang could then have reported back any new impressions of the sound.
    My system link on WBF: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Sublime-Sound
    Analog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
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    Speakers: Magico Q3, Magico Mini II, Essentials: Jim Smith RoomPlay, 3 Vibraplanes, Dedicated circuits

  2. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    853, are you referring to me re my frankly misleading comments re Wheel Fi Horns, which I was happy to withdraw when the error of my ways was pointed out to me?
    If so, I was guilty as charged on that one, but not relevant here I think.
    It was to add context to your comment here:

    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic
    WBF started as predominantly as a place for enthusiasts and punters to talk about gear, concepts, sounds.

    If engineers did chime in, it was never to hawk their wares, but to genuinely add to the discourse (Ralph of Atmasphere being a good example).

    Only in the last couple of years has WBF morphed into a hybrid with manufacturers/designers AND NOW dealers getting involved.

    Now there’s a lot more “fake news” potentially about.
    The inference being that somehow because dealers are now involved (with stated vested interests) there’s “a lot more “fake news” potentially about”.

    Is there though?

    Are dealer/distributor/manufacturers more likely to peddle in disinformation than an anonymous punter/blogger? Is disinformation the sole reserve of those with vested interests? Are enthusiasts and punters more likely to avoid disinformation because they’re “free” of potential conflicts of interest and the consequences of peddling in disinformation? Are engineers therefore incapable of propagating disinformation simply because of the assumption they’re here to “genuinely add to the discourse”?

    I’d say each needs to be answered on a case-by-case basis.

    I may not share nor endorse all of Joshua’s posts, and I’m certainly not defending him (no do I believe I need do so), but skin-in-the-game is always relevant apropos accusations of misinformation.

    My point is and remains that we would perhaps do well to discuss any reports of “fake news” in the context of harm (1) rather than vested interests (2). In the specific case mentioned above, the small, boutique manufacturer was far more vulnerable to potential downside from misleading comments made on an online forum than the poster who made them.

    Hope that clarifies things.

    Best!

    853guy

    (1) One thousand false reports of a Yeti sighting in downtown NYC during rush hour will not cause anywhere the level of harm as a single false report of an outbreak of the Marburg virus in downtown NYC during rush hour. Consider that in the latter case, thousands of police, medical professionals, biosafety specialists and government agents will be rallied to a prevent an outbreak, and thousands if not tens of thousands of citizens will attempt to flee the city, potentially causing harm to themselves and/or others in the process. Potential for harm defines dis/misinformation more than the source of the dis/misinformation itself. It's why it's a criminal act to knowingly report a false bomb threat, but not to say you saw Bigfoot.

    (2) We should not conflate vested interests with conflict of interest. It’s possible to have vested interests and yet operate ethically, even if optics suggest otherwise.
    Jung Lee, The End, 2010, Courtesy of the artist and Green Art Gallery, Dubai.
    --
    "In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists." Hoffer, Eric. Reflections on the Human Condition. (Aphorism 32). 1973

  3. #173
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    Sure 853, I donít want to give the impression that dealers spread fake news.
    Indeed fake news is just, ahem, news.
    Ask the BBC, so called unbiased purveyors of just news, complicit in plenty of biased reporting.
    Everyone is at it.
    Iím sure I am too.
    Conscious or not so conscious.
    But no doubt the fuller involvement of dealers is just something to be aware of.
    As is maybe the exhuberance of punters.
    In my time on WBF, Iíve positively plugged grounding boxes, a loom of cables, an isolation platform, a record cleaner.
    And repeatedly plugged my fave brands.
    Maybe readers should be wary of my words too.

  4. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    Sure 853, I donít want to give the impression that dealers spread fake news.
    Indeed fake news is just, ahem, news.
    Ask the BBC, so called unbiased purveyors of just news, complicit in plenty of biased reporting.
    Everyone is at it.
    Iím sure I am too.
    Conscious or not so conscious.
    But no doubt the fuller involvement of dealers is just something to be aware of.
    As is maybe the exhuberance of punters.
    In my time on WBF, Iíve positively plugged grounding boxes, a loom of cables, an isolation platform, a record cleaner.
    And repeatedly plugged my fave brands.
    Maybe readers should be wary of my words too.
    We are, spirit, we are.

    Be well!

    853guy
    Jung Lee, The End, 2010, Courtesy of the artist and Green Art Gallery, Dubai.
    --
    "In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists." Hoffer, Eric. Reflections on the Human Condition. (Aphorism 32). 1973

  5. #175
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    Iím very well indeed, 853.
    Maybe this needs its own thread.
    I mean if youíre wary of my reportsí veracity, are you also of Kedís travelogues, MikeLís endless conveyor belt of pricey upgrades reports, Tangís a/b carts tests on his multiple rigs etc?
    Iíd hate to be alone in potential suspicion.

  6. #176
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 853guy View Post
    It was to add context to your comment here:



    The inference being that somehow because dealers are now involved (with stated vested interests) there’s “a lot more “fake news” potentially about”.

    Is there though?

    Are dealer/distributor/manufacturers more likely to peddle in disinformation than an anonymous punter/blogger? Is disinformation the sole reserve of those with vested interests? Are enthusiasts and punters more likely to avoid disinformation because they’re “free” of potential conflicts of interest and the consequences of peddling in disinformation? Are engineers therefore incapable of propagating disinformation simply because of the assumption they’re here to “genuinely add to the discourse”?

    I’d say each needs to be answered on a case-by-case basis.

    I may not share nor endorse all of Joshua’s posts, and I’m certainly not defending him (no do I believe I need do so), but skin-in-the-game is always relevant apropos accusations of misinformation.

    My point is and remains that we would perhaps do well to discuss any reports of “fake news” in the context of harm (1) rather than vested interests (2). In the specific case mentioned above, the small, boutique manufacturer was far more vulnerable to potential downside from misleading comments made on an online forum than the poster who made them.

    Hope that clarifies things.

    Best!

    853guy

    (1) One thousand false reports of a Yeti sighting in downtown NYC during rush hour will not cause anywhere the level of harm as a single false report of an outbreak of the Marburg virus in downtown NYC during rush hour. Consider that in the latter case, thousands of police, medical professionals, biosafety specialists and government agents will be rallied to a prevent an outbreak, and thousands if not tens of thousands of citizens will attempt to flee the city, potentially causing harm to themselves and/or others in the process. Potential for harm defines dis/misinformation more than the source of the dis/misinformation itself.

    (2) We should not conflate vested interests with conflict of interest. It’s possible to have vested interests and yet operate ethically, even if optics suggest otherwise.
    Yes, this post is a bit clearer. And I agree with your points. Are you implying that Tang is spreading disinformation or "fake news" because his cartridge is now assumed to be less than optimally set up? We do not know if that is the case. Perhaps it can be improved upon and then the sound will get better. Hopefully he will report back at some point and let us know. I tend to give Tang the benefit of the doubt and assume he is simply sharing his impressions of what he heard with this new cartridge and that his intentions are honest. Unfortunately, I am worried that he will leave this discussion and move on to better things.

    I am interested in more comparative write ups describing in some detail how these Top Wing cartridges sound relative to other top tier alternatives. Tang attempted to do that.
    My system link on WBF: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Sublime-Sound
    Analog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
    Electronics: Pass Labs XA160.5 amp, XP-22 preamp, XP-25 phono, Cables: Transparent REF XL MM2,
    Speakers: Magico Q3, Magico Mini II, Essentials: Jim Smith RoomPlay, 3 Vibraplanes, Dedicated circuits

  7. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Yes, this post is a bit clearer. And I agree with your points. Are you implying that Tang is spreading disinformation or "fake news" because his cartridge is now assumed to be less than optimally set up? We do not know if that is the case. Perhaps it can be improved upon and then the sound will get better. Hopefully he will report back at some point and let us know. I tend to give Tang the benefit of the doubt and assume he is simply sharing his impressions of what he heard with this new cartridge and that his intentions are honest. Unfortunately, I am worried that he will leave this discussion and move on to better things.

    I am interested in more comparative write ups describing in some detail how these Top Wing cartridges sound relative to other top tier alternatives. Tang attempted to do that.
    Hi Peter!

    Hope you are well.

    No, absolutely not - I am not at all implying Tango is spreading disinformation.

    As far as my perspective goes, limited as it is, Tango confirmed he did not set up the cart but then later played around with loading via the EMT, and Joshua attempted to define some of the parameters he believes will confer the greatest benefits on the listener's enjoyment.

    Does that invalidate Tango's subjective impressions? No, but on the other hand neither does it justify Joshua's responses. Both Tango and Joshua seem confident in their respective perspectives. It just means we are currently devoid of some information allowing us to better contextualise their comments - i.e., specific, repeatable, directly-comparable set-up variables which as with all things analogue often have large scale impacts on how one perceives performance.

    As to Tango's and Joshua's intentions... I would never dare speculate, and especially so for two gentlemen who I've never met. Sometimes how one remediates a dispute matters more than the dispute itself.

    I too hope we will be afforded greater insight into these carts as this thread progresses.

    Be well, Peter.

    853guy
    Jung Lee, The End, 2010, Courtesy of the artist and Green Art Gallery, Dubai.
    --
    "In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists." Hoffer, Eric. Reflections on the Human Condition. (Aphorism 32). 1973

  8. #178
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    853, I salute your optimism that disputes get resolved etc etc.

    Ked and I both wholly disagree on the efficacy of Mooks v Stacores under gear.

    He says I used the wrong size of Mooks for my component and didnít align them via their dots correctly.

    I say he hobbled the effects of Stacore by not eliminating using the componentís rubber feet.

    Did any of this lead to a resolution? No, it led to more entrenched biases. And ďfake newsĒ findings persisted.

    As I say, I admire your blue sky thinking.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    853, I salute your optimism that disputes get resolved etc etc.

    Ked and I both wholly disagree on the efficacy of Mooks v Stacores under gear.

    He says I used the wrong size of Mooks for my component and didnít align them via their dots correctly.

    I say he hobbled the effects of Stacore by not eliminating using the componentís rubber feet.

    Did any of this lead to a resolution? No, it led to more entrenched biases. And ďfake newsĒ findings persisted.

    As I say, I admire your blue sky thinking.
    Sorry, I offered to do a compare which you refused. Anyway, I don't see the relevance here.
    Audition recordings: Zero Distortion Link; Reference Components: Zero Distortion Link; Own: Lampi GG One-day-to-get: Apogee Scintilla, or a horn (with Tenor 75 OTL ), Preamp to be fit in to suit the gain and drive the power amp. Analog: TBD

  10. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    I’m very well indeed, 853.
    Maybe this needs its own thread.
    I mean if you’re wary of my reports’ veracity, are you also of Ked’s travelogues, MikeL’s endless conveyor belt of pricey upgrades reports, Tang’s a/b carts tests on his multiple rigs etc?
    I’d hate to be alone in potential suspicion.
    Hi Spirit,

    It was meant as a joke, and I wrongly assumed you would get that given the numerous friendly exchanges we've had in the past. That it's been misinterpreted is regretful, and I shall be doubly cautious as to making assumptions like that from here on in. Perhaps I just suck at trying to be being funny.

    Even from a cursory glance at my posting history, I would hope it's clear I've attempted to consistently demonstrate I consider opinions of hi-fi gear - defined by our experience and shaped by our preferences and biases - to be no more or less than that. That goes just as much for a person with 10,000 posts as one with 10; someone with a system worth $1 million as much as someone with a system worth $1000; someone with decades of experience (i.e. preconceived bias expressed with conviction) versus someone with none (who may therefore be less influenced by preconceived bias but unable to articulate their process); someone with years of live acoustic music attendance as someone who's only ever listened to EDM via headphones; someone who reviews for a living versus someone who's illiterate; someone who relies on appeals to authority to justify their observations versus someone who believes they're an authority in their own right.

    They're all just opinions. And I try to hold them all pretty lightly, taking them on a case-by-case basis relative to their ability to avoid logical fallacies, especially my own.

    I won't pretend to assume to know why you've felt the need to single out the posts of Ked, Mike L, and Tang as being worthy of "suspicion", as I prefer to use my time and energy to focus on the nature of the post rather than the nature of the poster.

    Best,

    853guy
    Jung Lee, The End, 2010, Courtesy of the artist and Green Art Gallery, Dubai.
    --
    "In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists." Hoffer, Eric. Reflections on the Human Condition. (Aphorism 32). 1973

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