Top Wing Seiryu arrives at Believe High Fidelity

bazelio · Jul 12, 2019

Believe High Fidelity said:
Sorry have a very busy week and weekend. @bazelio I will make the inquiry for you, but it would just make sense to just try one out.

Thanks for making the inquiry. I actually think I will have an opportunity to try one soon. But I want to make sure to be using a suitable SUT when I do. I guess the general inquiry is if they think it's suitable for use with a SUT. A couple specific questions are: What's the max load impedance recommended? Did they consider capacitance being increased by turns ratio squared when they spec'd "not bothered by load capacitance"?

Thanks!

FYI: The Top Wing Blue Dragon is a low inductance cartridge not a high one as you have suggested.

What is its inductance?

Believe High Fidelity · Sep 10, 2019

Amazing news!!!

Believe High Fidelity delivers on our promise to bring you what we feel are the best products on the market today.

Stereophile Magazine has awarded the Top Wing Suzaku "Red Sparrow" $16,500 a Class A rating for 2019 in this month's issue of Stereophile!

XV-1 · Sep 10, 2019

Believe High Fidelity said:
Amazing news!!!

Believe High Fidelity delivers on our promise to bring you what we feel are the best products on the market today.

Stereophile Magazine has awarded the Top Wing Suzaku "Red Sparrow" $16,500 a Class A rating for 2019 in this month's issue of Stereophile!

View attachment 56867

May I ask how does one get to a retail price of $16,500 when elsewhere in the world the same cartridge is almost half this price?

Tango · Sep 10, 2019

XV-1 said:
May I ask how does one get to a retail price if $16,500 when elsewhere in the world the same cartridge is almost half this price?

You may not Shane

.

howiebrou · Sep 11, 2019

bazelio said:
I'm still trying to figure out the particulars of the SUTs that have been used supposedly successfully with the Topwing. What is the step-up ratio for the @VinylSavor Lundahl SUT, and what is its secondary loaded with (impedance-wise)? I think Thomas already stated it's a lower impedance SUT, and not a good match with VDH. That could be OK with the 12 Ohm Topwing. The other info would be good to know. Does the EMT have a SUT? I know Allnic does, but I don't know the details. Any info would be useful. Thanks!!

@Believe High Fidelity is there any way you can find out a maximum load recommended for this cart from the mfg? (Said another way, that is the minimum usable load value for flat response)

EMT has a very nice SUT although i forgot it's model no. I saw one just yesterday.

howiebrou · Sep 11, 2019

XV-1 said:
May I ask how does one get to a retail price of $16,500 when elsewhere in the world the same cartridge is almost half this price?

If that's the case Shane, may be it's worth seeking one out over here, but i need 50% discount again

bazelio · Oct 6, 2019

At my friend's, we mounted the Red Sparrow to the 11" 4-point on the Merrill Williams, going to an Intact Audio Ag SUT, to a Ypsilon phono stage, to an EAR 912 line stage, to an EAR 890 amp, and finally to the Lansche speakers.

Ron Resnick · Oct 6, 2019

bazelio said:
At my friend's, we mounted the Red Sparrow to the 11" 4-point on the Merrill Williams, going to an Intact Audio Ag SUT, to a Ypsilon phono stage, to an EAR 912 line stage, to an EAR 890 amp, and finally to the Lansche speakers.

How does it sound? What was the prior cartridge?

What differences do you hear?

bazelio · Oct 6, 2019

I posted the link to a video so you could get an idea of the sound. It sounds very good. Some of the chain is a bit warmer than I prefer, but it's still a nice sound. We compared it directly to the Blue Dragon. The Blue Dragon was leaner and brighter. The Red Sparrow is more balanced. I think I know your preferences reasonably well Ron, and I do suspect the Red Sparrow would be a cart you'd like a lot. It's got that type of sound where you want to just keep turning up the volume without ever feeling like it's too loud. It's got loads of detail, but is never in your face. And the three dimensionality of the Red Sparrow just second to none. Remarkable.

There was also a Proteus D on hand, which we couldn't mount today. But I know from past experience that it doesn't compete in terms of organic sound and ease of presentation.

Ron Resnick · Oct 6, 2019

Yeahhh, I am a high-end audio video skeptic.

Thank you for the comparison report!

bazelio · Oct 6, 2019

I don't blame you. The videos leave a whole lot to the imagination.

Tango · Oct 6, 2019

bazelio said:
I posted the link to a video so you could get an idea of the sound. It sounds very good. Some of the chain is a bit warmer than I prefer, but it's still a nice sound. We compared it directly to the Blue Dragon. The Blue Dragon was leaner and brighter. The Red Sparrow is more balanced. I think I know your preferences reasonably well Ron, and I do suspect the Red Sparrow would be a cart you'd like a lot. It's got that type of sound where you want to just keep turning up the volume without ever feeling like it's too loud. It's got loads of detail, but is never in your face. And the three dimensionality of the Red Sparrow just second to none. Remarkable.

There was also a Proteus D on hand, which we couldn't mount today. But I know from past experience that it doesn't compete in terms of organic sound and ease of presentation.

Tell your friend to change arm to LT. Kuzma if you will. And you would possibly experience a whole different level of sound. This cart is amazing. It could be described as an incomplete cart when on pivot arm but it could turn into "the best analog front" as claimed by our friend who spends his life doing a/b in this forum. The Brits know how to get this cart really sings.

bazelio · Oct 6, 2019

Well, consider me skeptical of the LT correlation there. I strongly suspect it's not the LT aspect of what the Brits are doing that makes the big difference, but rather the loading and the matching to the SUT. For example, we tried the Ypsilon SUT (not well matched to the cart impedance) and the Intact Audio SUT (perfectly matched to the cart impedance), and the less expensive silver Intact SUT was a clear winner. The Ypsilon SUT noticeably dulled the sound and flattened the presentation. But with a proper electrical match, the cart sings. On the other hand, I don't hear any noticeable difference at the Lofgren null points where the arm tracks tangentially vs the middle of the record.

bonzo75 · Oct 7, 2019

Hi Bazelio, the cart has been tried with Mayer, EMT, NVO, Allnic and Vyger phono successfully. Stavros uses it with his AC. It has sounded pretty poor to average with Schroeder CB, SME 3012r, SME V, Vertere, and Da Vinci based on at least what I and others have heard. Vyger and Bergmann arms have been awesome (I still have to listen on a Bergmann). Does that mean it will work with all LT including Kuzma? I do not know. Yes it is tough to load, 1000 is the consensus. All the people who set up on the arms where it did not work (and where it did) had a very high level of set up expertise. I would be very interested in listening to it sound great on a pivot as that would make things much easier. Possibly it is extremely sensitive to VTA and azimuth and the azimuth is easy to get right in an LT.

Ps: when it does not sound right I mean it sounds thin, and even grating at times

bazelio · Oct 7, 2019

When it didn't sound good, what specifically were the issues?

It may be less sensitive to load than I thought. I'm still trying to determine its inductance though. The problem with the Ypsilon SUT we compared today was its low winding impedance. The Top Wing has a ~13R internal impedance. The DCR of the Ypsilon SUT was low. Not a good match, and the sound was dull with bass rolloff. I had similar issues with a different low impedance SUT when I had the Red Sparrow at my house. But once I found a higher impedance SUT, the Red Sparrow came to life. I believe @zerostargeneral had @VinylSavor customize a phono just for this cart. Perhaps he can comment, but at a minimum it would mean having Lundahl wind SUTs to a higher DCR. The load we had today would have been the Ypsilon 47k/15^2 = 208 ohms. And still, with the right SUT, it sounded great.

I've demoed the Red Sparrow in my home and had it sounding great on a standard 4-point. The same arm used in the video, actually. At my house, I was using a 15 ohm SUT and was able to load the cart at 1200 ohms. I did find the Red Sparrow is sensitive to VTA, but not difficult to dial in. Azimuth is no different than any other cart. Aim for minimal crosstalk. Though setup is one thing, and electrical matching is another. It's not your typical low impedance MC, which is the default assumption made by most phono mfgs. The wrong SUT can make all the difference. I heard it with my own two ears. So, I do believe the LT arm isn't the difference maker.

bazelio · Oct 7, 2019

bonzo75 said:
Ps: when it does not sound right I mean it sounds thin, and even grating at times

The Blue Dragon was a bit grating in the same system. But SUT/cart mismatch causes thin sound. Many arms are easy to adjust for azimuth.

bonzo75 · Oct 7, 2019

bazelio said:
The Blue Dragon was a bit grating in the same system. But SUT/cart mismatch causes thin sound. Many arms are easy to adjust for azimuth.

I am just guessing it is azimuth, I do not know. The guys who set up those pivots knew how to assist azimuth extremely well. In the phonos mentioned that worked I don't think there was any with an external SUT

bazelio · Oct 7, 2019

The next compare point will be MSL Sig Platinum. Low impedance, easy to match with common SUTs.

Audiophile Bill · Oct 7, 2019

The optimum load imho is around 1000ohms. Anything a lot lower removes speed, vibrancy, and life.

Best.

bazelio · Oct 7, 2019

Hey Bill, have a listen to the vid in #307 of the thread and let me know you you think.

Top Wing Seiryu arrives at Believe High Fidelity

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