USB versus Ethernet - a study reveals the winner

Empirical Audio

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thmor288

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I have trouble accepting this test, not because of the results (direct and indirect, measured jitter and sound quality) but because of the chosen conditions, particularly the chosen lengths of the tested cables.

First why did the tester use almost the maximum allowable USB cable length (16 feet)?

Everybody knows the damage that lenght in the USB connection creates to the computer data (in general the equipment sometimes don't even connect, let alone computer audio). This way the length compromises seriously the quality of the USB connection plus who amongst us uses such a long USB cable? I use 2 feet, others that I know use max 5 feet. Plus, since the tester wonders about the use of expensive USB cables, where has he seen expensive USB cables that long or how many of them are that expensive for the normal lenghts (2K)? I have, on the other hand, seen some very expensive LAN cables (>5K for really small lengths).

So, here is another hardware variable that I can think of since the tester cannot think of anything else, I would like to see the same measurements but with the length (2-5 feet max) if I am, at least, going to accept the validity of that experiment.

Extreme lengths on the USB cables do not make that experiment valid but suspect. Also, the LAN cable lenght is short(ish). In a house lenghts of at least 20-30 meters (60-90 feet) long are the nornal.

(The 2.0 specification limits the length of a cable between USB 2.0 devices (Full Speed or Hi-Speed) to 5 meters (or about 16 feet and 5 inches)).
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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I have trouble accepting this test, not because of the results (direct and indirect, measured jitter and sound quality) but because of the chosen conditions, particularly the chosen lengths of the tested cables.

First why did the tester use almost the maximum allowable USB cable length (16 feet)?

Because the test equipment and the computer could not be relocated to get them closer. The scope is very large and heavy.

Everybody knows the damage that length in the USB connection creates to the computer data (in general the equipment sometimes don't even connect, let alone computer audio). This way the length compromises seriously the quality of the USB connection plus who amongst us uses such a long USB cable? I use 2 feet, others that I know use max 5 feet.

I am aware of this, but think about this: The Ethernet cable was about 40 feet long, and also cheap wiring.

Plus, since the tester wonders about the use of expensive USB cables, where has he seen expensive USB cables that long or how many of them are that expensive for the normal lenghts (2K)? I have, on the other hand, seen some very expensive LAN cables (>5K for really small lengths).

I could certainly give the USB interface an advantage by connecting a very expensive USB cable, but them I would also have to have 40 feet of expensive Ethernet cable, no? I tried to keep this fair.

(The 2.0 specification limits the length of a cable between USB 2.0 devices (Full Speed or Hi-Speed) to 5 meters (or about 16 feet and 5 inches)).

True, this was at the max for USB 2.0 spec. Unfortunately, I could not do any better without major disruption to my media room.

Look, the results are actually fairly close. In listening tests with the same two interfaces and short cables, I still found the Ethernet to sound more live. That's right, I used 3 foot USB cable for the listening tests. Based on the listening tests I believe that a shorter USB cable for the measurements would not have closed the gap.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Ki Choi

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Steve:

When will your new Off-Ramp 6 would be available?
One of the issues for me with your previous Off-Ramp 5 was the converter not being able to pass DSD. Would it be the same with the 6?

thanks,
Ki
 

Empirical Audio

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Steve:

When will your new Off-Ramp 6 would be available?
One of the issues for me with your previous Off-Ramp 5 was the converter not being able to pass DSD. Would it be the same with the 6?

thanks,
Ki

OR6 is working if you don't use S/PDIF or AES outputs, but I2S instead. This is where DSD comes out, but I have never tried it.

Steve N.
 

thmor288

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OK, I accept that with your current set up you got the sound quality results that you got. But...

...I have another question. Your USB interface uses XMOS drivers from M2TECH, correct? What date/version are these drivers? From a quick check I gather they are from 2010. Is that correct? If they are, then you first have to blame the drivers for the USB interface sound quality and not the actual USB connection. The most recent drivers for XMOS right now (4.14) are way better in SQ from whatever there was available from 2010 and if you want to deliver something that is as good as it gets, or you want to draw more precise conclusions you should address that issue.

Of course, if your goal for creating the Ethernet interface (I guess brand new, that's why it is not listed in your line of products yet) was to eliminate (as you mention somewhere else) the computer and playback software (and driver quality and cost) as a factor affecting SQ then...

But do not blame the USB interface for that resulting SQ (with your current set up that is), it is a software problem that it is addressed continuously and its getting better and better every day (also there are other USB controllers out there, XMOS one of the best but not the absolute available, like the one from C-Media that actually performs amazingly well).
 

Marcin_gps

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In my experience, in order to get a really great sounding USB chain, one must optimize Ethernet as well.

Best regards,
Marcin
 

Pb Blimp

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In my experience, in order to get a really great sounding USB chain, one must optimize Ethernet as well.

Best regards,
Marcin

Marcin, you have perfected cards for both. Can you tell us, with all variables hypothetically held constant, in your opinion which sounds better?
 

Marcin_gps

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Marcin, you have perfected cards for both. Can you tell us, with all variables hypothetically held constant, in your opinion which sounds better?

The problem is that the variables can't be constant. In my opinion, USB is still the way to go as the best sounding connection between a PC transport and a DAC. But in order to get a truly great sound with USB DAC, Ethernet must be optimized as well, even if the network connection is used just as a remote control. Not many people are aware of this. Ethernet connection is active most of the time anyway, not always moving audio bytes, but still. And it's connected to your home network which then connects to the AC grid. It can be noisy.

That said, I think it's easier to get a great sound with Ethernet DACs.

Best regards,
Marcin
 

Empirical Audio

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Your USB interface uses XMOS drivers from M2TECH, correct? What date/version are these drivers? From a quick check I gather they are from 2010. Is that correct? If they are, then you first have to blame the drivers for the USB interface sound quality and not the actual USB connection. The most recent drivers for XMOS right now (4.14) are way better in SQ from whatever there was available from 2010 and if you want to deliver something that is as good as it gets, or you want to draw more precise conclusions you should address that issue.

No, the OR6 uses XMOS and the design is galvanically isolated, with the Master Clock on the isolated side. Driver only needed for PC.


Of course, if your goal for creating the Ethernet interface (I guess brand new, that's why it is not listed in your line of products yet) was to eliminate (as you mention somewhere else) the computer and playback software (and driver quality and cost) as a factor affecting SQ then...

There were a lot of reasons to go Ethernet. See the list in this review:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-sx-ethernet-dacpre

and jitter comparison measurements here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=155232.0

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

microstrip

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The problem is that the variables can't be constant. In my opinion, USB is still the way to go as the best sounding connection between a PC transport and a DAC. (...)

Best regards,
Marcin

What do you exactly mean by a "PC transport"?
 

Pb Blimp

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The problem is that the variables can't be constant. In my opinion, USB is still the way to go as the best sounding connection between a PC transport and a DAC. But in order to get a truly great sound with USB DAC, Ethernet must be optimized as well, even if the network connection is used just as a remote control. Not many people are aware of this. Ethernet connection is active most of the time anyway, not always moving audio bytes, but still. And it's connected to your home network which then connects to the AC grid. It can be noisy.

That said, I think it's easier to get a great sound with Ethernet DACs.

Best regards,
Marcin

What do you exactly mean by a "PC transport"?

Good question. Obviously, execution matters but I find it hard to believe a server like the Mojo or Innuos with dedicated direct ethernet ports running to a well designed dac renderer (MSB in my case) which goes direst to I2S and resides in close proximity to the best clock in the chain (the dac clock) would not be superior to the same server running through USB to the same dac. MSB has a phenomenal USB input and they disagree with you indicating to me their ethernet port is best FWIW.
 

Marcin_gps

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What do you exactly mean by a "PC transport"?

A computer audio transport. What else is equipped with a USB output, runs a playback software and can detect a USB DAC? :)

Good question. Obviously, execution matters but I find it hard to believe a server like the Mojo or Innuos with dedicated direct ethernet ports running to a well designed dac renderer (MSB in my case) which goes direst to I2S and resides in close proximity to the best clock in the chain (the dac clock) would not be superior to the same server running through USB to the same dac. MSB has a phenomenal USB input and they disagree with you indicating to me their ethernet port is best FWIW.

The execution of USB input (or Ethernet input) in a DAC is one thing, but the execution of USB & Ethernet on a computer transport side is another. And both co-exist whether you like it or not - Ethernet is a must unless one wants to sit in front of a display and control playback with a keyboard or mouse. And even if so, Ethernet is most likely involved and having impact on sound quality.

I'm using this Japanese hi-end network switch in my system now. It should be an essential component of every high end file-based system. I can't imagine playing music without it. And I'm using USB connection to my DAC...

image.jpg
 

microstrip

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A computer audio transport. What else is equipped with a USB output, runs a playback software and can detect a USB DAC? :) (...)

The word (CD) transport is usually reserved to CD spinners - computers are usually called servers. But yes, computer audio is a jungle ...
 

microstrip

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(...)
I'm using this Japanese hi-end network switch in my system now. It should be an essential component of every high end file-based system. I can't imagine playing music without it. And I'm using USB connection to my DAC...

View attachment 38742

If your intention was spreading confusion among non experts the picture and your last sentence were really successful. :)
 

bibo01

Member
Nov 26, 2013
201
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16
...
I'm using this Japanese hi-end network switch in my system now. It should be an essential component of every high end file-based system. I can't imagine playing music without it. And I'm using USB connection to my DAC...

View attachment 38742

It is a Japanese Telegaertner M12 Gold Switch.
"Gigabit Ethernet compatible switching hub for network / audio
Improve signal quality by adopting fully shielded circle connector (M12 X code) to shut out extraneous noise ?
Cut the influence of heavy bass vibration from the speaker"
https://translate.google.co.id/tran....phileweb.com/news/audio/201701/30/18293.html
 

bibo01

Member
Nov 26, 2013
201
1
16
Personally, when I see so many "solutions" - like fiber converter, USB reclocker/cleaner, Ethernet receiver (a small PC inside a DAC), audiophile switches,... -, I think they are all patched up jobs or simply temporary arrangements.
I welcome LAN audio distribution. IMHO, a good, possibly better option would be a bridge external to a DAC with Ethernet RJ-45 IN and I2S Differential Fiber Optic SFP OUT. It would function as endpoint for Roon/LMS/NAA/... through RJ-45; at the same time, through Fiber Optic SFP it would receive a non disturbed clock from DAC in one direction and send out data to DAC in the opposite direction. Clock inside can be highly sophisticated.
It will come I am sure :D
 

thmor288

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Feb 7, 2018
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No, the OR6 uses XMOS and the design is galvanically isolated, with the Master Clock on the isolated side. Driver only needed for PC.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Correct. But the PC is the source and the driver is "in the way". The driver version is directly linked to the final sound quality and in a big way, unfortunately for all of us. All drivers are not created equal and by "ignoring" their contribution in SQ is not the proper way to do things, IMHO, if someone is looking to get the most out of his/hers PC based sound system. To test this you can get the Wave I/O interface (USB to i2S and spdif) and I can send you most of the drivers from the last three years. This way you can experience the huge change in SQ with the different drivers versions (the guy behind it is doing an excellent job updating his drivers unlike some big brands...).

Hardware is 1/2 of the SQ equation, the other half is the software, be it drivers, players or OS...

As far as the capability of a well set up PC (from individual parts, from a well reputed company etc.) to sound better than a CD/SACD transport there is no doubt in my mind, if properly set it is better. All our efforts usually are so that we get the most out of our PC based sources not only to better a conventional transport...
 

Pb Blimp

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
518
25
140
USA
Personally, when I see so many "solutions" - like fiber converter, USB reclocker/cleaner, Ethernet receiver (a small PC inside a DAC), audiophile switches,... -, I think they are all patched up jobs or simply temporary arrangements.
I welcome LAN audio distribution. IMHO, a good, possibly better option would be a bridge external to a DAC with Ethernet RJ-45 IN and I2S Differential Fiber Optic SFP OUT. It would function as endpoint for Roon/LMS/NAA/... through RJ-45; at the same time, through Fiber Optic SFP it would receive a non disturbed clock from DAC in one direction and send out data to DAC in the opposite direction. Clock inside can be highly sophisticated.
It will come I am sure :D


Check out what MSB is doing with their new Pro I2S fiber link from their Transport to DAC.


New ProISL proprietary connection:
Dual-link laser fiber technology

Cable lengths up to 1 km

100% electrically isolated

Synchronous clock signal

Data redundancy



http://www.msbtechnology.com/transports/
 

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