Suggestions: SOTA Ethernet Server for a DAC Renderer

Marcin_gps

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innuos-zenith-innen1.jpg

There is a free PCIe slot available, so it's possible to install it with a PCIe riser cable. But the problem is - how to mount the PCIe bracket so the USB ports are available outside of the enclosure. I'm not sure if the back panel of the zenith se's enclosure is removable or at least partially detachable to allow for expansion PCIe card installation.
 

Legolas

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Paul,

Congrats on the MSB!
Where did you hear the Innuos are not serviced in the US? There is distribution (I'm a dealer), and they provide remote support if necessary (hardly ever is). So there is support in the US!
Out of all similar servers out there, I've heard a few (including one that you listed there), and my choice overall was the Innuos.
If you'd like to try the Zenith, let me know and I can arrange for it.

thanks,
Alex

A few questions on the Zenith
Does it output SPDIF or USB only?
Does it output bit perfect, no filtering or up sampling?
What is the player software?
Can it play Tidal using your software, not Tidal player (which is poor SQ IMO).
 

sbo6

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I never said that. If you are using wired Ethernet from router to DAC, then connecting the earth ground to the DC common of the LPS used for the router is critical. I also do this on my WIFI solution LPS.

I do all of this and still use a Mac Mini as my server, running Jriver.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve, the breaker box connects neutral and ground so I assume you mean connecting neutral and ground at the PSU? How does this benefit? Is it a difference in potential due to the distance to the breaker box?
 

Empirical Audio

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Steve, the breaker box connects neutral and ground so I assume you mean connecting neutral and ground at the PSU? How does this benefit? Is it a difference in potential due to the distance to the breaker box?

No, this is not connecting neutral and ground. This is connecting ground in the power cord to the DC common of the output of the DC supply. Most DC supplies do not connect these, so the DC common is either floating or connected through some resistance or magnetics to earth ground.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Iamrael

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No, this is not connecting neutral and ground. This is connecting ground in the power cord to the DC common of the output of the DC supply. Most DC supplies do not connect these, so the DC common is either floating or connected through some resistance or magnetics to earth ground.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Wouldn't simply connecting the chasis screws with a piece of wire accomplish this?
 

Pb Blimp

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Yes, I have a view about the Mojo server. They use very good power supplies which they make themselves. Industrial low-noise motherboard from a different maker (not supermicro), but also good. Plus the JCAT cards are powered independently. It's a great build. From technical point of view it has an edge over Innuos. Innuos has a nicer enclosure and their software seems very easy to use.

BR,
Marcin

So Marcin,

If you were picking the best Ethernet source available based strictly on sound quality, would it be one of the four I referenced in my OP and if so which one? If not one of these, what other unit would you choose?

Thanks,
 

sbo6

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No, this is not connecting neutral and ground. This is connecting ground in the power cord to the DC common of the output of the DC supply. Most DC supplies do not connect these, so the DC common is either floating or connected through some resistance or magnetics to earth ground.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Got it, thanks for explaining.

Steve B.
 

microstrip

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For what it's worth the Mojo server has both a Linux option and JCAT Ethernet Card option. Below is from the Mojo Audio Website:

Just a naive question - Ethernet and USB do not have timing information - they are intrinsically asynchronous protocols. Why having cards with "Fentoclocks" or similar? Particularly as I have seen most people connect the server to the DAC RJ45 input through a router.
 

Pb Blimp

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Just a naive question - Ethernet and USB do not have timing information - they are intrinsically asynchronous protocols. Why having cards with "Fentoclocks" or similar? Particularly as I have seen most people connect the server to the DAC RJ45 input through a router.

Marcin is probably one of the best guys on the planet to answer that question if he is still watching this thread.

As I (very roughly) understand things, even though in an asynchronous connection the clock in the DAC runs the show as far as the data stream goes, the clock in the card of the server/PC is not rendered completely idle. As such, the accuracy of that clock is still very important to jitter minimization even though timing is run by the clock down stream.

Regarding your second comment, all four of the devices in the OP are designed with two RJ45 ports. One to the router/switch and a second dedicated (isolated) ethernet port which runs directly to the DAC and is optimized for sound quality.
 

Empirical Audio

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Wouldn't simply connecting the chasis screws with a piece of wire accomplish this?

Connect the chassis screws to what? What if the router chassis is plastic? They usually are. The supply chassis is not necessarily grounded either. Definitely not if the power supply has two-prong plug.

Steve N.
 

Empirical Audio

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Just a naive question - Ethernet and USB do not have timing information - they are intrinsically asynchronous protocols. Why having cards with "Fentoclocks" or similar? Particularly as I have seen most people connect the server to the DAC RJ45 input through a router.

If the DAC has Ethernet renderer built-in, the only clock whose jitter is important is the one in the renderer. The other clocks only move the packets from point A to point B over WiFi or wired Ethernet.

If the server converts Ethernet or WIFI to S/PDIF, and S/PDIF coax goes to the DAC, then the jitter of the clock in the server matters.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

asiufy

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A few questions on the Zenith
Does it output SPDIF or USB only?
Does it output bit perfect, no filtering or up sampling?
What is the player software?
Can it play Tidal using your software, not Tidal player (which is poor SQ IMO).

USB or network-only.
Output is bit perfect, unless you use Roon to mess with DSP.
Player software can either be Roon, or a UPNP-compatible player. UPNP compatible server software is included, and can be used instead of Roon.
To play Tidal, you need to use Roon.



cheers,
alex
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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I am getting ready to set up the digital side of my new room and was hoping I could get some feedback on the current crop of SOTA Ethernet Servers. I have an MSB DAC with the MSB Renderer so I have already cast my ballot on what I think is the best architecture for getting files to a player (i.e, ethernet not local storage at player) and getting the output from player to dac (i.e., I2S not USB, Spidf, etc.). So those decisions need not be addressed.

I realize a lot of threads have discussed this in the past but this seems to be a fast evolving markets. I am looking for a server with the best ethernet isolation, power and grounding execution. Roon comapitbility, SSD storage, USA support and USA manufactured (for service reasons) are preferences but not mandatory. Sound quality is top priority. Based on my limited leg work I have identified the following candidates:


Innuos Zenith MK II (or SE) - Pros -- SSD, Roon, USA support. Cons-- ?
Melco N1ZH/2 (or N1ZS/2) - Pros -- SSD on European version, USA Support. Cons -- No SSD in USA (HDD only), No Roon, Not USA serviced.
Fidata HFAS1-XS20U - Pros -- SSD on European version. Cons -- No USA support or service, No Roon.
Mojo Deja Vu - Pros -- SSD, Roon, USA support and service. Cons -- ?


All of these servers use isolated ethernet-out ports to the player (renderer) and sophisticated power and grounding schematics which are critical IMO. For this reason I have not included some of the usual candidates like the Sonic Orbitor, the Roon Nucleus, the NUC/Rock, SotM, NAS drives, or, of course, as stated above, servers/(players) optimized more for USB or Spidf (like the SGM, Lumin U1, etc.) as opposed to ethernet.

I am curious if any users have experience in their systems or in auditions with these units or any top units I am misssing. Thanks.

Hi Paul

I know you are not sooo fond of Lampizator but wouldn't the Lampizator SuperKomputer fit your criteriae?
https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/superkomputer
https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/fu...-a4521889c2fc/0/?i=0&p=zxa57&s=style-jb6lal1g

In addition, the SK is powerful enough to use HQPlayer (for upsampling RBCD to DSD512 if wanted) to further increase the (already very good !!) SQ (from roon alone) even further.
 

Pb Blimp

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Hi Paul

I know you are not sooo fond of Lampizator but wouldn't the Lampizator SuperKomputer fit your criteriae?
https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/superkomputer
https://www.lampizatorpoland.com/fu...-a4521889c2fc/0/?i=0&p=zxa57&s=style-jb6lal1g

In addition, the SK is powerful enough to use HQPlayer (for upsampling RBCD to DSD512 if wanted) to further increase the (already very good !!) SQ (from roon alone) even further.

Thanks very much Cristoph.

From a design perspective, my sense of Lukasz stuff is that he has largely optimized around USB (and spidf to some extent) in his dacs and as such the SuperKomputer follows this tact versus ethernet. I do see in the photos he has a second ethernet port now but frankly the Lampi way is just not my thing. Thanks for the thought though.
 

christoph

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Hi Paul

You are very welcome.

The Pacific DAC has a ethernet-in and is a certified roon endpoint and from what I read/heard, greatly profits sonically from being fed via ethernet by the SuperKomputer.
But if the Lampi gear is just not for you, then so be it. That is fair enough.

I wish you sonic bliss with the gear you finally decide is right for you.
 

microstrip

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If the DAC has Ethernet renderer built-in, the only clock whose jitter is important is the one in the renderer. The other clocks only move the packets from point A to point B over WiFi or wired Ethernet.

If the server converts Ethernet or WIFI to S/PDIF, and S/PDIF coax goes to the DAC, then the jitter of the clock in the server matters.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Thanks - it was my idea. Can we consider that the key points in servers used with a rendered/DAC should be electrical noise and isolation?
 

Marcin_gps

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Jun 24, 2015
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So Marcin,

If you were picking the best Ethernet source available based strictly on sound quality, would it be one of the four I referenced in my OP and if so which one? If not one of these, what other unit would you choose?

Thanks,

If it's strictly a music server then I'd go with Mojo Audio. I'd create a bridge connection on the JCAT NET Card - one port for the router (home network) and the other one to connect an Ethernet DAC (Renderer) directly.

Just a naive question - Ethernet and USB do not have timing information - they are intrinsically asynchronous protocols. Why having cards with "Fentoclocks" or similar? Particularly as I have seen most people connect the server to the DAC RJ45 input through a router.

Of course they do have timing information, otherwise clock oscillators wouldn't be required for USB or LAN.
If USB or Ethernet implementations on a computer transport side had no impact whatsoever on sound quality of a computer audio system then any PC/laptop would sound the same and all audiophile USB transports, music servers etc would be pointless.

Marcin is probably one of the best guys on the planet to answer that question if he is still watching this thread.

As I (very roughly) understand things, even though in an asynchronous connection the clock in the DAC runs the show as far as the data stream goes, the clock in the card of the server/PC is not rendered completely idle. As such, the accuracy of that clock is still very important to jitter minimization even though timing is run by the clock down stream.

Regarding your second comment, all four of the devices in the OP are designed with two RJ45 ports. One to the router/switch and a second dedicated (isolated) ethernet port which runs directly to the DAC and is optimized for sound quality.

You may not believe what I'm writing as this is my business and my products, but it's easy to find comments from customers using my cards on this forum or CA. They only confirm what I stated above.

If the DAC has Ethernet renderer built-in, the only clock whose jitter is important is the one in the renderer. The other clocks only move the packets from point A to point B over WiFi or wired Ethernet.

If the server converts Ethernet or WIFI to S/PDIF, and S/PDIF coax goes to the DAC, then the jitter of the clock in the server matters.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

My experience tells me otherwise - it matters also if Async USB DAC (USB-S/PDIF converter) is used.

Best regards,
Marcin
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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Thanks - it was my idea. Can we consider that the key points in servers used with a rendered/DAC should be electrical noise and isolation?

I would say this is a key consideration for a Router or Switch feeding a DAC or wired directly to a server. For a server feeding a DAC with S/PDIF coax or USB, there are different considerations, like jitter, power supply quality, DSP interference etc..

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

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My experience tells me otherwise - it matters also if Async USB DAC (USB-S/PDIF converter) is used.

Best regards,
Marcin

I was talking about S/PDIF. If USB is used as an endpoint, then the jitter of the Master Clock in the USB interface matters. It would be the Master Clock, but may also be affected by jitter and CM noise on the USB cable.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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If it's strictly a music server then I'd go with Mojo Audio. I'd create a bridge connection on the JCAT NET Card - one port for the router (home network) and the other one to connect an Ethernet DAC (Renderer) directly.

That makes sense to me, thanks!

Of course they do have timing information, otherwise clock oscillators wouldn't be required for USB or LAN.
If USB or Ethernet implementations on a computer transport side had no impact whatsoever on sound quality of a computer audio system then any PC/laptop would sound the same and all audiophile USB transports, music servers etc would be pointless.

That was my understanding as well.

You may not believe what I'm writing as this is my business and my products, but it's easy to find comments from customers using my cards on this forum or CA. They only confirm what I stated above.

Thank you for answering here. I am aware of your reputation and have high regard for your work!

My experience tells me otherwise - it matters also if Async USB DAC (USB-S/PDIF converter) is used.

Agreed.
 

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