Are High-End Cables a Scam?

microstrip · Jan 11, 2011

How do you prove that cables are a scam?

1. Keep the discussion simple. All you need to explain cables is Ohm law, nothing else. If someone speaks about real dielectrics, skin effect, or something similar that needs more than a linear equation explain him politely there are appropriate discussions in newsgroups about Physics.

2. Never accept discussing anything than frequency response and noise. If some one tries it, explain the thread is about cables, not electronics or speakers.

3. Find some reasons why even blind tests fail – some people can easily pass cable blind tests and it will be a unacceptable in this argumentation.

4. Pick up the cases of manufacturers who use expensive materials used in jewelry. Although they are only a relative small number people will remember them mostly. To show you are objective refer the quantitative cost of raw materials.

5. Avoid referring manufacturers and specific cases – if the discussion is kept general, the cable partisans will find more difficult to refute your arguments. They can even find some respectable audio manufacturers, sound engineers and producers that use these cables if you refer a specific brand.

6. Use old cliches, such as the emperor’s new clothes, garden hoses, fools parting with their money and big wallets. People love them.

7. If someone has a good argument pro-cables explain that some acoustic treatment costing one tenth the price of the cable will make bigger differences – probably he will answer his wife will not allow ugly panels in the family room and the question becomes a family affair, not an audio question.

8. To seal the discussion refer to cables with networks – no one will dare to defend them!

Enjoy!

audioguy · Jan 11, 2011

I don't know if "the velocity" of posts can be measured but if so, and the site founders ever want to speed it up, just add a new thread on cable differences, digital versus analog, or any of a few other subjects and presto, more transactions!!!

Certainly there is no lack of opinions on these subjects

Robert · Jan 11, 2011

To steer this back on track, how much profit should one be allowed to make on a cable? If someone takes $25 in parts, puts them together in his garage, and sells for $1000, is that a scam? What if someone spends $2000 in parts, takes over a year to refine the invention, needs special equipment and a full week for building, and then sells for $6000.

Note that the cheaper cable retails at 40x the materials cost, the more expensive at 3x the materials cost. I actually believe that people could make more money selling the $1000 cable than the $6000. There is a level where cost becomes regressive.

Phelonious Ponk · Jan 11, 2011

microstrip said:
1. Keep the discussion simple. All you need to explain cables is Ohm law, nothing else. If someone speaks about real dielectrics, skin effect, or something similar that needs more than a linear equation explain him politely there are appropriate discussions in newsgroups about Physics.

2. Never accept discussing anything than frequency response and noise. If some one tries it, explain the thread is about cables, not electronics or speakers.

3. Find some reasons why even blind tests fail – some people can easily pass cable blind tests and it will be a unacceptable in this argumentation.

4. Pick up the cases of manufacturers who use expensive materials used in jewelry. Although they are only a relative small number people will remember them mostly. To show you are objective refer the quantitative cost of raw materials.

5. Avoid referring manufacturers and specific cases – if the discussion is kept general, the cable partisans will find more difficult to refute your arguments. They can even find some respectable audio manufacturers, sound engineers and producers that use these cables if you refer a specific brand.

6. Use old cliches, such as the emperor’s new clothes, garden hoses, fools parting with their money and big wallets. People love them.

7. If someone has a good argument pro-cables explain that some acoustic treatment costing one tenth the price of the cable will make bigger differences – probably he will answer his wife will not allow ugly panels in the family room and the question becomes a family affair, not an audio question.

8. To seal the discussion refer to cables with networks – no one will dare to defend them!

Enjoy!

9. Don't attempt to prove that cables are a scam; they're not. Some of their claims are a scam. Esoteric cables themselves are just a profoundly bad value.

10. Ask the cable believer to provide evidence that the difference he hears in his "blind listening test" is an objective improvement, not just a difference.

Tim

RUR · Jan 11, 2011

Phelonious Ponk said:
10. Ask the cable believer to provide evidence that the difference he hears in his "blind listening test" is an objective improvement, not just a difference.

Tim, where are you going with this? As you pointed out just last week, DBT's are routinely used to determine subjective preference sans non-auditory stimuli.

muralman1 · Jan 11, 2011

I use to fret about having to spend a lot of money for cables. I heard Cerious, and Shunyata helical cables, and was very impressed over the Anti Cables I was employing at the time. If I hadn't lucked out making my own, I would still be wringing my hands over cable choice.

audioguy · Jan 11, 2011

Phelonious Ponk said:
9. Don't attempt to prove that cables are a scam; they're not. Some of their claims are a scam. Esoteric cables themselves are just a profoundly bad

Tim

+1

Phelonious Ponk · Jan 11, 2011

RUR said:
Tim, where are you going with this? As you pointed out just last week, DBT's are routinely used to determine subjective preference sans non-auditory stimuli.

Not going anywhere in particular with it, RUR. But my suspicious nature figures there's a pretty good chance that if two perfectly good cables sound different, one of them is changing the frequency response of the input, or adding noise or distortion to the path. So you heard a difference in a carefully controlled, statistically valid ABX listening test? That's great. But before we decide it's ruby slippers or Santa's elves, let's get the numbers. If you can consistently, statistically hear it, I'll bet the farm it'll show up, and we can know exactly which cable is right, not just that they're different. Then we'll know which one is better, and all we'll have to do is decide how much it's worth. If you can consistently, statistically hear it and it doesn't show up in the numbers, I'll go shopping for some slippers and an elf suit.

Tim

cjfrbw · Jan 11, 2011

booboobaer said:
Thanks for the insult and making it personal. I find it interesting if given enough time somewone will insult you if they disagree with you on a topic.

I am sorry, I got carried away with the jape. I am standing in the corner now.

Ethan Winer · Jan 11, 2011

Phelonious Ponk said:
10. Ask the cable believer to provide evidence that the difference he hears in his "blind listening test" is an objective improvement, not just a difference.

Before that, ask for proof that there even is a difference. People often report hearing a difference in an A/A test where nothing at all has changed.

--Ethan

RBFC · Jan 11, 2011

Let's please keep the discussion impersonal and directed at the industry, not the person(s) who may or may not buy expensive cable. After all, purchases are individual decisions.

Lee

muralman1 · Jan 11, 2011

Ok, I am sorry. I have very little experience with cables. Usually people want ideas backed with facts. With the experience I have, I have deduced Cable design is like fish lure. You have to catch the buyer first.

I know for a fact, except for some exceptions, change in sound is due to coloring of the signal.

fas42 · Jan 11, 2011

As I mentioned before to Tim, speakers and hence the cables to them are effectively part of the amplifier/music reproduction mechanism -- as an extreme example consider a boombox with built-in speakers: a high end system is ultimately no different conceptually from that boombox. If elements in that boombox are sensitive to each other or to outside interference then the sound will change; a high end system merely magnifies that sensitivity. Yes, part of it is Ohm's Law but if you want to get difficult you can throw in magnetic, thermoelectric, electrochemical, piezoelectric, triboelectric and pyroelectric effects, and antenna reception. These are all real effects that people doing sensitive electrical measurements have to worry about at times, and last time I checked the ear/brain is a pretty sensitive instrument too ...

Frank

Mark (Basspig) Weiss · Jan 12, 2011

The one problem here is that it IS the individuals who keep the scam companies in business by buying the hype about the products. I find that the less technical knowledge a person has, the more they can be manipulated to buy into these snake oil cables. It's so simple though: signal at the input of the cable should be the same as at the output. Cable should have no measureable or audible effect on the signal passing through it. For subwoofers, 8AWG copper wire satisfies that need. For interconnects, any decent 97% or better shielded coax with gold plated connectors of proper design (so they make a tight fit) will do. It amazes me that people still debate this stuff.

fas42 · Jan 12, 2011

Cable should have no measureable or audible effect on the signal passing through it

The trouble is, cables have to start and stop somewhere, normally one metal surface pressed (hopefully) fairly hard against another metal surface. Guess what, you can create a diode by having different types of metal touching each other in just the right way, the early radio enthusiasts used to have special setups for fine tuning this sort of thing. So, maybe, just maybe, there could be some little diode thing going on here at the end of the "perfectly adequate" cables... And what do diodes do? They rectify the signal a bit, which sounds like pretty nasty distortion to me. Maybe this effect is very slight, but, gee, it might actually be audible ...

Frank

DaveyF · Jan 12, 2011

Mark and all other doubters, it is a very simple thing to substitute various cables into your system and see if you can hear a difference.

Personally, I think cables make a very substantial difference in the sound of a system.With my system, I have heard significant differences with various cables. My current fave is Nordost, which has brought greater resolution across the board compared to my old cables, which were no slouch in this area either....Highwire-- designed by Don Palmer.

fas42 · Jan 12, 2011

By the way, what's this cat thing all about in hifi? Every other time you see a photo of audio gear or people there's a bl@#dy cat somewhere in the picture! Is it part of some sort of mystical tweaking process that is is talked about in hushed tones in the dark corridors, amongst the initiated ...

Frank

microstrip · Jan 12, 2011

How do you prove that cables are a scam?

Mark (Basspig) Weiss said:
The one problem here is that it IS the individuals who keep the scam companies in business by buying the hype about the products. I find that the less technical knowledge a person has, the more they can be manipulated to buy into these snake oil cables.

Sorry, I forgot this one in my list

9. Associate cable consumers with people with poor technical knowledge, such as philosophy teachers and artists. If needed admit the exception of some of the great pros who use and promote cables in their studios. Do not risk criticizing them - people love their recordings!

FrantzM · Jan 12, 2011

microstrip said:
Sorry, I forgot this one in my list

9. Associate cable consumers with people with poor technical knowledge, such as philosophy teachers and artists. If needed admit the exception of some of the great pros who use and promote cables in their studios. Do not risk criticizing them - people love their recordings!

.. Not completely true IMO. IT is difficult to really know what those pros think of the cables they use. I am certain they have some nice accomodations, exchange of services if you will which profits both themselves and the cable manufacturers and that is NOT ethically wrong. I am certain for the most psrt they don't use mega-expensive cables for their microphone feed, for that the alternative, from Belden, Canare and the likes seem to be just fine as you would witness in many of the best strudios... Now a thought.. Some of the best recording were made with decidedly un-esoteric cables .. Since at taht time, cables were not an issue .. I am talking about the Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, Deccas, Lyritas. etc ...

I will allow myself to grant that some people have perceived differences, that is not the crux of the matter. What seems to be however is that when someone takes two pieces of wire, dress them in a fancy way (bigger is ALWAYS better) produces some material that purport to explain why their ware is superior in pseudo-scientific fashion (vide the active shielding or or the Quantum Tunneling, etc). Thensell it for the prices we see.. The sam meter should start running.. Now what I find interesting is how defensive people get about that fact, people that are not Cable manufacturers themselves but (simple, I hope) consumers of such ware... I must say the prices we see for cables are ungodly with manufacturers going over 10 k for an 8 ft pair of speaker cables with total abandon and happily going toward $50,000 ...
It will remain so.. People will continue to buy these cables for a while.. The market for such is not growing nor is it likely to ...There will be (perhaps) some serious backlash and I believe the Cable Manufacturers will be the first victims.. Look at video where they have not made a dent ... Audio will follow and soon ... I know people with mega speakers, mega Amps and Turntable who are now using basic less than $1000 cables and are quite happy with them... one of these people could be on this very forum...

MylesBAstor · Jan 12, 2011

FrantzM said:
.. Not completely true IMO. IT is difficult to really know what those pros think of the cables they use. I am certain they have some nice accomodations, exchange of services if you will which profits both themselves and the cable manufacturers and that is NOT ethically wrong. I am certain for the most psrt they don't use mega-expensive cables for their microphone feed, for that the alternative, from Belden, Canare and the likes seem to be just fine as you would witness in many of the best strudios... Now a thought.. Some of the best recording were made with decidedly un-esoteric cables .. Since at taht time, cables were not an issue .. I am talking about the Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, Deccas, Lyritas. etc ...

I will allow myself to grant that some people have perceived differences, that is not the crux of the matter. What seems to be however is that when someone takes two pieces of wire, dress them in a fancy way (bigger is ALWAYS better) produces some material that purport to explain why their ware is superior in pseudo-scientific fashion (vide the active shielding or or the Quantum Tunneling, etc). Thensell it for the prices we see.. The sam meter should start running.. Now what I find interesting is how defensive people get about that fact, people that are not Cable manufacturers themselves but (simple, I hope) consumers of such ware... I must say the prices we see for cables are ungodly with manufacturers going over 10 k for an 8 ft pair of speaker cables with total abandon and happily going toward $50,000 ...
It will remain so.. People will continue to buy these cables for a while.. The market for such is not growing nor is it likely to ...There will be (perhaps) some serious backlash and I believe the Cable Manufacturers will be the first victims.. Look at video where they have not made a dent ... Audio will follow and soon ... I know people with mega speakers, mega Amps and Turntable who are now using basic less than $1000 cables and are quite happy with them... one of these people could be on this very forum...

Who said bigger cables are better? MIT cazbles are not "thick." Neither are the KS cables for that matter. Then there are cables from Mapleshade and some other solid core cables that are rleatively thin. The "number" of thick cables IMHO is greatly outweighed by mormal cables. Of ocurse if you're talking aobut zip cord, then that's another story.

Are High-End Cables a Scam?

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