Can't seem to agree on anything & jazz recordings sound great

Yep. late 50s/early 60s vintage jazz recordings can be fabulous. I think it mostly has to do with acoustic instruments, recorded simply and well in lively rooms as opposed to the isolation booths, close-micing techniques and layers of overdubs we've gotten since the 70s. Great analog recordings have been made that way too, I just think it's a lot harder. By the way, Mep, I think you're being a bit sensitive about the other thread. My copy of Way Out West does not reveal one of the great recordings of that era, but as I said over there, you have a different master, so I don't know about yours. I'd hardly call that a food fight, but if you want to avoid having your opinions challenged, you might want to avoid opening your post with a couple of them:

I am going to name two LPs that will knock your socks off assuming you have a decent system: Sonny Rollins "Way Out West" and the 45 RPM version of Herbie Hancock "Maiden Voyage."

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And in your next post...

Please name me one jazz recording that has been made in the last 15-20 years using all the *finest* digital technology and non-tube microphones that can rival just the two LPs I named in terms of sound quality.

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If you're going to lay down a challenge, I think you give up the right to be surprised when someone picks it up. If you're going to imply that anyone who doesn't hear the way you do lacks a "decent system," you might even expect it.

Tim

Well, of course it is difficult to generalize about all jazz recordings over 30-40 decades, the few that I heard leave very much to be desired. I will admit that I am not a fan of jazz, but I have tried. Many of the recordings have now reached some legend status and I am sure the liner notes go on about the genius of the recording engineers and the foresight of the producers. However, my impression was that at least some of these sessions were recorded under some very sparse situations, sometimes with novices to recording. Again, not my area of expertise, so I'll put on my flame suit.

I do have something by Count Bassie that sounds very impressive. But what I have by Coltrane, Evans, Brubeck, Pepper and Hartman just don't seem to stand-out for the recording aspect. If you are moved by the performance, then great. I almost wonder if a great performance leaves the impression of a great recording because it makes you feel good. I don't think I've heard WOW to make any specific comment.

Ok. Flame away. I'm ready. You can pepper IMO on that post as well.

With regards to my last statement, I stand by what I said with regards to WOW. If you truly feel/believe that WOW is a bad or mediocre recording, something is dead wrong.

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There is something wrong, Mep, or at least very, very different. You're listening to a re-master made for an audiophile audience, I'm not. I am probably listening to a straight transfer of the master tape to digital, if not a copy of the master. Even at that, I wouldn't call Way Out West bad or even mediocre in the pejorative sense of that word. Average for the era would be more accurate. I could supply you a long list of jazz recordings, vintage and modern, analog and digital, that sound better than my copy of Way Out West. But there wouldn't be much point in that.

By the way, welcome to jazz. The catalog is so deep and so rich you could probably spend the rest of your life exploring and never get past the 60s.

Tim

Having a lot of jazz recordings, most of them 50s and 60s and classical music from the same period I’m inclined to say that you can almost hear the recording date.
Not only tape hiss is prominent but especially when a piano is playing legato you can hear the wow and flutter of the capstan. The grand piano of the 50s sounds like a pianola, the cello like being made of paper instead of wood.
You can simply hear the limitations of the recording technique of that time.
The same with Jazz, nothing wrong with Rudy van Gelder but you can simply hear the limitations of his gear.
Not that is matters, a great performance is a great performance.
My favorite performance of Beethoven’s piano sonatas is by Wilhelm Kempff (60s)
I love his interpretation but again, there are better recordings.
For me it is a bit like watching an old movie. The first thing that strikes you is that there is no color. After a while you get used to it.

I can't think of a better place to put the list, though understand that they're not all great-sounding recordings. Some of the best stuff in the genre was recorded before the technology crossed the line that allowed those classics of the BeBop/Cool/HardBop eras to sound so fabulous. With that said, lots of people would make different choices, but these are a few of my favorite things...

Miles
Birth of the Cool
'Round About Midnight
The Legendary Prestige Quintet Sessions
Kind Of Blue
Sketches of Spain
Porgy and Bess

Coltrane (I'm not a huge fan; I like him best as a sideman, but it's hard to deny the genius of...)
Giant Steps
A Love Supreme
Blue Trane

Cannonball
Somethin' Else (as much a Miles record as a Cannonball record, and one of my all-time favorites)
Cannonball and Coltrane
Sextet Live in New York

Mingus
Ah Um

Monk
Brilliant Corners
Monk's Dream
Monk's Music

Bill Evans
Portrait In Jazz
Conversations With Myself
Waltz For Debby

Dave Brubeck
Time Out (Don't let anybody convince you this is lightweight because it is accessible, this is brilliant stuff)

There are many, many more. Getz, Gill Evans, Wayne Shorter, Art Blakey, Chet Baker, Dizzy, Joe Pass, Oscar Peterson...don't start me talkin', I'll tell everything I know....

I'm not a big fusion fan, but I love Herbie Hancock before and after that side trip. At some point, steel yourself to ignore the old thin recordings and dive into Charlie Parker, Louis Armstrong, early Ella and Sarah Vaughn. Take an open-minded look at what Joni Mitchell has done in the genre. But primarily, get the best recordings of the main players -- Miles, Coltrane, Cannonball, Evans, Monk, etc. Look at who the sidemen are and follow them to other projects and sometimes wonderful careers as band leaders. It'll keep you busy for a long, long time.

Tim

They spined on my system very recently :

Errol Garner "Concert by the Sea" (very poor sound quality, great performance)
Eric Dolphy "Out to Lunch!" (great music with great sound)

Tim makes a good list. At some point nearly everyone played in Miles band. Check the players in the band for vocalists. Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Quincy Jones. If you look at the great players and the standard tunes you'll go far. You can also take the record labels like Blue note, Columbia, Prestige, etc and that will lead you. The internet makes it a lot easier. I remember I had to listen to the radio, hope the announcer would name the tune and try to have a pen ready.

Phelonious Ponk said:

I can't think of a better place to put the list, though understand that they're not all great-sounding recordings. Some of the best stuff in the genre was recorded before the technology crossed the line that allowed those classics of the BeBop/Cool/HardBop eras to sound so fabulous. With that said, lots of people would make different choices, but these are a few of my favorite things...

Miles
Birth of the Cool
'Round About Midnight
The Legendary Prestige Quintet Sessions
Kind Of Blue
Sketches of Spain
Porgy and Bess

Coltrane (I'm not a huge fan; I like him best as a sideman, but it's hard to deny the genius of...)
Giant Steps
A Love Supreme
Blue Trane

Cannonball
Somethin' Else (as much a Miles record as a Cannonball record, and one of my all-time favorites)
Cannonball and Coltrane
Sextet Live in New York

Mingus
Ah Um

Monk
Brilliant Corners
Monk's Dream
Monk's Music

Bill Evans
Portrait In Jazz
Conversations With Myself
Waltz For Debby

Dave Brubeck
Time Out (Don't let anybody convince you this is lightweight because it is accessible, this is brilliant stuff)

There are many, many more. Getz, Gill Evans, Wayne Shorter, Art Blakey, Chet Baker, Dizzy, Joe Pass, Oscar Peterson...don't start me talkin', I'll tell everything I know....

I'm not a big fusion fan, but I love Herbie Hancock before and after that side trip. At some point, steel yourself to ignore the old thin recordings and dive into Charlie Parker, Louis Armstrong, early Ella and Sarah Vaughn. Take an open-minded look at what Joni Mitchell has done in the genre. But primarily, get the best recordings of the main players -- Miles, Coltrane, Cannonball, Evans, Monk, etc. Look at who the sidemen are and follow them to other projects and sometimes wonderful careers as band leaders. It'll keep you busy for a long, long time.

Tim

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Thanks for the shopping list Tim. Keep 'em coming!

Just checking I find these albums in the New Yorker.

[video]http://www.newyorker.com/online/2008/05/19/080519on_onlineonly_remnick[/video]



This is also a nice primer on the evolution of jazz

http://www.oculus.com/features/primers/jazz/jazz.html

The New York list looks pretty good but definitely is not catering to audiophiles (fortunately). I'm pretty familiar with all of Tim's favorites and think that they are a good place to start. Some of them even sound pretty good.

If you are listening to jazz,I'm happy.

mep - Thanks for starting this thread. I am also sorry at the turn Mike L's thread took...it leads to some interesting questions. Perhaps this will help redirect things back on track.

I too was a bit taken back by Raul's comments, but he is often a contrarian ; - ). I have a Japanese reissue, a 45 rpm reissue and an original copy of WOW -- I prefer the original. Generally recordings on the Contemporary label from that era range from well recorded to exceptional. I think WOW is somewhere between.

I recently purchased a couple of original LPs from the collection of Contemporary's founder, Lester Koenig, including a pristine mono copy of Art Pepper's 'Smack Up'...it may be the best sounding LP I own. The stereo copy of Teddy Edwards' "Teddy's Ready" ain't no slouch either! A few other Contemporary LPs of exceptional musical and recording quality include:

Barney Kessel, Ray Brown & Shelly Manne "The Poll Winners", M3535, 1957
Barney Kessel, Ray Brown & Shelly Manne "The Poll Winners Three", M3576, 1960
Art Pepper "Gettin' Together", S7573 (Pepper backed by Miles Davis' band), 1960
Sonny Rollins "And The Contemporary Leaders", S7564, 1959
Leroy Vinnegar "Leroy Walks Again!!!", S7608, 1963


I have a theory as to why the jazz recording of this era sound so good. It was the apex of pre-transistor technology. There were no overdubs. Many of the best records were cut in one or two days, so they were as close to a spontaneous live performance as possible. And by the way, those guys could play their asses off!

Tim - Great starting list for someone interested in exploring jazz; none are less than terrific. I have found that Columbia and Argo recordings from the mid-50's to mid 60's are often spectacular, provided you get the mono pressing and play back with a mono cartridge. The stereo recordings are more hit and miss. In my limited experience, the Blue Note records of that era while typically exceptional performances, are often sonic disappointments. Thank goodness for MusicMatters and Analogue Productions 45 rpm reissues. Original Impulse! recordings tends to be pretty good. Prestige, Atlantic and RCA are hit and miss sonics-wise. From the mid-70's to early 80's; Pablo records are a standout sonically. Of more recent vintage, Venus records from Japan are usually quite good recordings and I like their artists such as Ken Peplowski.

Although I usually prefer vinyl, I am not dogmatic regarding digital recordings. Some recent sonic gems with performances to match include:

Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band "The Phat Pack", Immergent, 2006
Arturo O'Farrill "Live In Brooklyn", Zoho Music, 2005
Anat Cohen "Clarinetwork: Live At The Village Vanguard", Anzic, 2010
Harry Allen & Joe Cohn "Hey Look Me Over", Arbors Records, 2006
Russ Reinberg "Blue Scarlett", Jazzed Media, 2006
Pearl Django "Swing 48", Modern Hot Records, 2003

The master alto sax player clean & sober with a world class back up group:


For some great new jazz check out: www.smallslive.com

Here's another one I just discovered recently:

Diana Krall: The Girl In The Other Room.

This is a complete break from the tyranny of The Great American Songbook. There's not a standard to be found here, and for that, it's probably not nearly as popular as Krall's torchy, over-produced records. But it's a hell of a lot better. With songs from Tom Waits, Elvis Costello and Joni Mitchell, some purists probably don't consider it jazz at all. They're dead wrong. The singing is terrific. The piano playing is magnificent. The sound is gorgeous. I'd put this one up against the sound of any of the records of the golden era under discussion.

Krall needs to do more of this, and albums like Live In Paris. She'd be poorer for it, but a lot more jazz fans would understand what she is, which is the real deal, and one of the greats.

Tim