Help me beat my CD Transport

Empirical Audio · Jan 24, 2018

SuperDave said:
Could be any or all of those things. Luckily, I have lots of cds.

At least if you are spinning CD's make sure the jitter is low:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0

And you are using a good cable:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

jkeny · Jan 24, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
J, because I know there is a musical education/universe on Tidal/Roon, and I feel I shouldn’t deny myself.
But I also know I’ll struggle to emulate my current sound from many streamer/dac combinations without spending mucho bucks.
I really don’t want to end up with a source that struggles to match the verve and warmth of my current tt and cdp.
And a small stream of comments claiming streaming can be v prone to insipidness does nothing to answer my doubts.

I tell you what - are you in the UK?
I have a USB based ISO-DAC being reviewed by UK based reviewer which should be released in the next couple of weeks, I believe - do you want to hear a DAC that may well change your mind & is not mucho bucks ?

jkeny · Jan 24, 2018

Empirical Audio said:
You have that right, at least with this designer. I remember how excited we all were when the first USB designs came out with master clock in the receiver and not the computer. We though that jitter could be really low and the computer, cables and software would be removed from the equation. Boy were we wrong!!

I cannot speak for other designers, but I'm now learning the same things for Ethernet and making changes and adapting. The difference is that there are less impediments with Ethernet to getting really stellar live sound IME.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Yep asynchronous USB - the answer to all our prayers!! Well it was the answer to some of them but not all
Yes, audio clocks next to DAC chip input jumped the sound quality & allowed us to focus on other issues
One emerging issue became dynamic noise - the type that is low level & varies with signal
Addressing this has jumped the SQ further
You may well be correct that ethernet has less impediments to getting to the sound we are all targeting - a realistic illusion

spiritofmusic · Jan 24, 2018

J, let me know when it comes out.
Yep, I’m in the UK, centre of the universe re the high end .

asiufy · Jan 24, 2018

SuperDave said:
I spin using an Esoteric K-01X and stream from an Aurender W20. IME, the spinner wins every time if I stream from Tidal. Files stored on the W20 sound better but still not as good as cd. Maybe I prefer duel AES/EBU from the K-01X over the Spdif from the W20? I tried USB with the W20 and never liked what I heard but I did not experiment with many USB cables which I have read make a big difference. Regardless of sound, I love the convenience of Tidal for new music exploration.

We've used to use Tidal for our demonstrations here. It was simple, we could just pop one of our playlists up and choose stuff to play.
Until we were setting up a system, and the bass was kinda boomy... Spent hours changing cables, speaker positioning, etc. We got the boom to almost go away, but it was still there... Then it dawned on me to play the actual rip I had in my server, instead of the Tidal version... And hey, no boomiess at all!
So, do use Tidal, but if you have the CD, compare it before choosing the Tidal version... Sometimes there's no difference whatsover, but sometimes it goes the other way...

cheers,
alex

SuperDave · Jan 24, 2018

Empirical Audio said:
At least if you are spinning CD's make sure the jitter is low:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0

And you are using a good cable:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154425.0

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Thanks for link Steve. Ill read up after lunch.

Dave

Empirical Audio · Jan 24, 2018

microstrip said:
The best way is cutting a cheap RJ45 cable in half, removing the insulator at the extremes and connect the cables of each side together. Using these probes it is easy to measure jRust the device capacity - but surely it should be removed.

I just posted this link in another thread (MBL's Juergen Reis on measurements and sound quality):

Similar things are happening with digital inputs and outputs that are galvanically isolated (meaning no Ohm connection, and so no DC current is flowing), but due to stray capacitance of the digital audio transformers, there is an unwanted leakage path of the digital audio signal. Even this stray capacitance can be lower than 10 pF, but with the Biphase Signal in the MHz area, it can influence the total quality of a DAC.

Read more at https://www.audiostream.com/content...surements-and-uncertainty#y5O8XgLzzSkTHhWG.99

The input transformer connector I'm using (Pulse J0011D01NL) measures 27pF between input and output windings. The ground on the input side is connected to the ground on the output side with 75 ohms in series with 1000pF.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

jkeny · Jan 24, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
J, let me know when it comes out.
Yep, I’m in the UK, centre of the universe re the high end .

Will do!

SuperDave · Jan 24, 2018

asiufy said:
We've used to use Tidal for our demonstrations here. It was simple, we could just pop one of our playlists up and choose stuff to play.
Until we were setting up a system, and the bass was kinda boomy... Spent hours changing cables, speaker positioning, etc. We got the boom to almost go away, but it was still there... Then it dawned on me to play the actual rip I had in my server, instead of the Tidal version... And hey, no boomiess at all!
So, do use Tidal, but if you have the CD, compare it before choosing the Tidal version... Sometimes there's no difference whatsover, but sometimes it goes the other way...

cheers,
alex

Alex,
I agree with the boominess. Bass sounds a bit sloppy from Tidal compared to files stored on the HD, not nearly as visceral.

Dave

microstrip · Jan 24, 2018

Empirical Audio said:
The input transformer connector I'm using (Pulse J0011D01NL) measures 27pF between input and output windings. The ground on the input side is connected to the ground on the output side with 75 ohms in series with 1000pF.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

A 27pf capacitor will have an impedance of 59 ohm at 100 MHz - I will not call it an "isolator" anymore.

Empirical Audio · Jan 24, 2018

SuperDave said:
Alex,
I agree with the boominess. Bass sounds a bit sloppy from Tidal compared to files stored on the HD, not nearly as visceral.

Dave

What could be happening here? DSP stuff? These files are FLAC at 44.1 correct?

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Empirical Audio · Jan 24, 2018

microstrip said:
A 27pf capacitor will have an impedance of 59 ohm at 100 MHz - I will not call it an "isolator" anymore.

Although there are two of these in series, so it's actually more like 14pF.

So, why does grounding the router DC common to earth ground help? Is it the 500pF or the 14pF noise that is being squelched?

BTW, I put an isolator in series, so I think the capacitance is actually 1/3, but I'm not sure what it does to the 1000pF ground connection....

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

sbo6 · Jan 24, 2018

zbub said:
The potential music/sonic gains of digital playback without a disc transport were certainly very intriguing. Even when I was using an Ayre C5xe MP to play physical discs and a Linn Akurate to play files from a QNAP NAS, I’ve always thought physical discs still sounded better, more alive, more drive, more… analog and musically involving… I realized from the learning and experimenting the entire ripping, storage, and playback of digital files was that everything made a difference. Windows rips better sounding files than Mac, WAV sounds better than FLAC, and I hated WiFi router between storage and playback.
Fast forward a couple of years and I ended up with CH D1/C1. I thought the dCS Vivaldi stack sounded just a bit better overall but I didn’t want to mess with that many components, and the CH combo sounded just fine to me so I went that route. For file playback I ended up with a Melco NAS (finally no WiFi router in signal transferring!), Acoustic Revive LAN isolator, and Audioquest Ethernet cable. However playback through physical discs still sounded better. Files in my system just sounded staler and not as open and exciting musically.

Apples and oranges - It's difficult to compare when you're using 2 different DACs - Linn versus Ayre and my $ is on the Ayre, which, as you stated was better. Also, I/O type used, cables, etc all matter too.

zbub · Jan 24, 2018

sbo6 said:
Apples and oranges - It's difficult to compare when you're using 2 different DACs - Linn versus Ayre and my $ is on the Ayre, which, as you stated was better. Also, I/O type used, cables, etc all matter too.

For me with the CH combo the result was the same. FYI I was really not trying to "compare" to see which way sounded better; I am happy with either setup actually, for background or casual listening I am okay with streaming because of convenience, but if I want to hear deeper and be more immersed with the music I spin discs.

zbub · Jan 24, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
J, but all I’ve ever been told about files is that eliminating the spinning disc eliminates all that jitter that makes digital a “spikier” experience than analog, and makes streaming more musical than discs.

A bit like the promise of "perfect sound forever" doesn't it? I just think we simply do not know/understand the entire process well enough.

zbub · Jan 24, 2018

joeling said:
Long story short - My CD / SACD transport sounds better than my music server / file player. Now, I am faced with having to manually playing physical media. Please recommend to me a File based player that can beat my transport.

CD Transport : DCS Vivaldi

File based player : Aurender W20 with wordclock input from DCS Vivaldi clock. Output is AES / EBU (tried USB - AES was better)

DAC : Vivaldi DAC + upsampler

Please help.

Going back to joeling's original question, I also auditioned dCS Vivaldi stack with Aurender W20 as the file player. I don't remember whether the cable was USB or AES/EBU, probably AES/EBU. But I also have to agree that physical discs still sounded better. I remember Aurender sounded quite a bit drier than discs, most notably on vocals.

jkeny · Jan 24, 2018

zbub said:
A bit like the promise of "perfect sound forever" doesn't it? I just think we simply do not know/understand the entire process well enough.

It's being gradually teased out but the link that Microstrip posted is worth reading for a handle on why we don't "know/understand the entire process" - it's simply because devices are usually measured in isolation & of course mostly measure near perfect as that is the engineering goal. What is overlooked is the end use of such a device & measuring it realistically - i.e. in a system with test signals that are closer to the character of dynamic music signals. This is difficult & not often seen as it's not taught in engineering school.

So when people argue about whether hearing is more sensitive than measurements, they are talking past each other because hearing is perceiving the sound coming from a full system using dynamically changing signal (music) & measurements are often done on isolated devices or done with simple sine wave test signals.

The posts here about common mode noise, isolation, capacitance across input to output of 'isolation' transformer are all reflected in that link
https://www.audiostream.com/content/open-and-tolerant-mbls-juergen-reis-listening-measurements-and-uncertainty#y5O8XgLzzSkTHhWG.99

opus112 · Jan 24, 2018

Empirical Audio said:
So, why does grounding the router DC common to earth ground help?

Most likely cause that I can see is the router's internal or external SMPSU is a common-mode noise source and the the local ground provides a preferential route for this noise which would otherwise travel via various ethernet cables and thence into the audio system to resolve itself.

It isn't a universal panacea though as the local ground at the router is thereby made noisy and that provides a very low impedance source (albeit at fairly low amplitude) of CM noise.

mcduman · Jan 25, 2018

playing around with different ethernet patch cables for a while now, here are my conclusions:

shielded cat 7 cables are meant for properly grounded data center grade networking equipment. for home use with one end of the patch cable connected to a noisy smps in your router, the shield transmits all that noise downstream. ironically, lan was not a bad protocol to start with (galvanically decoupled using a transformer) but the shield totally defeats the purpose in a home networking scenario. so, based on my experience,

cat 7 (with shield disconnected) >> ordinary unshielded twisted pair (class 5) >> cat 7

unfortunately, unshielded cat 7's are not commercially available so I rolled my own. I bought a meter of belden f/ftp bulk cable (foil around individual pairs plus a foil around all 4 cores). s/ftp will also work. the purpose of x/ftp here is to prevent emi and crosstalk between cores. then I connected them to the mercedes amg of all connectors: telegartner rj-45. i first saw them being endorsed by audioquest and they are really german engineering at its best.

assembly is really easy (unlike other connectors) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DYipM5Gsyc. so much so that i want to keep building these cables. connect only the 8 color-coded cores and not the shield for best results for home use.

now listen to tidal and hear the bass for the first time

wisnon · Jan 26, 2018

To the OP...

Easy,

Get a PC with Linear power supplies with separated to all critical subsystems. then get either the Laufertek Memory player Software suite, or if you are more adventurous (and for cheaper, but only forum support), get Win Server 2016 with AudioOptimizer and Roon/HQP (Fidelizer Pro process lasso optional). In both cases you need to tweak the BIOS. Make sure to play back from internal SSDs with the latter and from the "slot"in the former.

Thank me later.

Help me beat my CD Transport

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