Is Pass Labs/Martin Logan a good match?

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Now that captured my attention!

G'day Romaz,
I find your post very interesting indeed and have some questions:

1. On the Ren15a they are fitted with built in high powered bass drivers, capable of delivering well over 500w of class D power. Why on earth would you need so much power on the panels?

2. The efficiency on the whole speaker itself is well over 90dB! My initial experience with this series listening extensively to a chaps Ren 15a's over here, driven with a high powered CJ amplifier, is too much (classic 120). The room is not suited for such power and completely over-energizes the room. Later on he used the ARC software to a great affect but still has issues... Hence, has downsized to the Classic 60se, which is the same power amp I'm using on my Ethos.
Question is: to acquire this much power, is your room massive?

3. I have a good close mate who is driving his CLX's with just the XA30.8 driven full range! No subs, no added power amps, monoblocks or any gizmos, just a stand alone stereo amp and it is just superb! There is nothing short of a marvelous performance not only in sound, but also in sheer transparency, totally natural timbre & tone, and most of all musicality. Although not comparable to what I currently have, I am totally satisfied with what the classic 60se can deliver through the Ethos with 250w of built in class D power plus DSP and all the added goodies from Martin Logan's proprietary design.
Hence, my final question: are you trying to achieve an artificial impact and not allowing the Stats to reproduce sound & tonality in its more pure and true form? (which as you know the Ren 15a can reproduce beautifully!)

I don't currently own these stats nor have lived with them in large rooms but the use of 300w of class A power by the legend Nelson Pass seems excessive to me.

Sorry, if I'm coming across as arrogant or rude. That's certainly not my intention. It's just that I absolutely love these stats and was planning to end up with the CLX's! However, after careful and extensive sessions with the Ren15a, now I'm enjoying my humble Ethos and will decide a bit later...

I'm trying to understand why you would require this much power?

These two types of stats cost an awful lot in Aussie land, (in excess of 40 grand!) and therefore one of these will be my final speakers. I'm just now wondering which one...
What's your advice mate?

Cheers RJ
 

romaz

Well-Known Member
Oct 7, 2015
214
1,290
363
Now that captured my attention!

G'day Romaz,
I find your post very interesting indeed and have some questions:

1. On the Ren15a they are fitted with built in high powered bass drivers, capable of delivering well over 500w of class D power. Why on earth would you need so much power on the panels?

2. The efficiency on the whole speaker itself is well over 90dB! My initial experience with this series listening extensively to a chaps Ren 15a's over here, driven with a high powered CJ amplifier, is too much (classic 120). The room is not suited for such power and completely over-energizes the room. Later on he used the ARC software to a great affect but still has issues... Hence, has downsized to the Classic 60se, which is the same power amp I'm using on my Ethos.
Question is: to acquire this much power, is your room massive?

3. I have a good close mate who is driving his CLX's with just the XA30.8 driven full range! No subs, no added power amps, monoblocks or any gizmos, just a stand alone stereo amp and it is just superb! There is nothing short of a marvelous performance not only in sound, but also in sheer transparency, totally natural timbre & tone, and most of all musicality. Although not comparable to what I currently have, I am totally satisfied with what the classic 60se can deliver through the Ethos with 250w of built in class D power plus DSP and all the added goodies from Martin Logan's proprietary design.
Hence, my final question: are you trying to achieve an artificial impact and not allowing the Stats to reproduce sound & tonality in its more pure and true form? (which as you know the Ren 15a can reproduce beautifully!)

I don't currently own these stats nor have lived with them in large rooms but the use of 300w of class A power by the legend Nelson Pass seems excessive to me.

Sorry, if I'm coming across as arrogant or rude. That's certainly not my intention. It's just that I absolutely love these stats and was planning to end up with the CLX's! However, after careful and extensive sessions with the Ren15a, now I'm enjoying my humble Ethos and will decide a bit later...

I'm trying to understand why you would require this much power?

These two types of stats cost an awful lot in Aussie land, (in excess of 40 grand!) and therefore one of these will be my final speakers. I'm just now wondering which one...
What's your advice mate?

Cheers RJ

Hi RJ,

My journey with the ML Renaissance 15A has been a challenging one to the extent that I almost gave them up. In the end, it came down to proper amplification and I'll do my best to explain.

In my home, I have 2 listening rooms. In my moderate-sized home office, I have a pair of custom Voxativs in a near field configuration that are driven beautifully with just 2 watts of amplification. Combined with a JL Audio subwoofer, this setup is wonderful for intimate vocals and small ensemble classical and jazz. For this type of music, I couldn't ask for better as these single-driver Voxativs are capable of expressing exquisite detail layers with wonderfully rich textures and the most subtle nuances.

Where this setup is less credible is with large orchestral music or heavily amplified music, especially during those times when I am looking for a scale performance at reference volume levels. For this type of music, I prefer to listen in my large listening room that happens to double as my home theater. This room is large enough (30 feet wide, 24 feet deep with 16 foot high cathedral ceilings) that it could accommodate almost any size of speaker. I eventually settled on the ML Renaissance 15As after hearing them driven very convincingly by a D'Agostino Progression stereo amp (300w into 8 ohms) at RMAF last year. As I reviewed my notes from that show, I commented on the giant sound stage these speakers cast as well as the tremendous bass. To not have to use separate subwoofers in my large listening room was a real plus.

When my ML Ren15As finally arrived to my home, I had some mixed feelings about how they sounded but mostly, I was underwhelmed. Before I describe what I mean by this, I need to first discuss my amplification choice. While I liked what I heard with the D'Agostino Progression, this amp is not easy for me to audition where I live and so I started off with a Pass Labs XA30.8 that I borrowed from a friend. At only 30w into 8 ohms and 60w into 4 ohms, this doesn't sound like much, however, as you've stated, the ML Ren15A are 92dB sensitive and so this amp was capable of driving the Ren15A to pretty loud levels. This amp beautifully exhibited that evocative Pass Labs tone with wonderful midrange bloom and a very airy treble. The problem with this amp is that I found bass response (even with the Ren15A's powered subs) to be underwhelming. Not only was the impact soft but it was loose and not well defined. More importantly, transients at all frequencies seemed slow and dulled and the image sounded too diffuse. While the XA30.8 might be adequate for Diana Krall, it just didn't cut it for Mahler's 8th.

Someone suggested that I try the Pass Labs XA60.8 monoblocks and these paired better with the Ren15As in my large room. A touch less sweetness but better drive and more headroom, however, it still sounded too soft for my liking and bass was still underwhelming to the extent that I felt I needed to supplement the Ren15As with a separate subwoofer. Also, the image still sounded too diffuse. I was beginning to think that either Pass Labs amps were not a good fit for the Ren15A or I was better off with point source speakers rather than these softly imaging electrostats.

From here, I decided to give class D a try and I was able to audition a pair of Merrill Thor (200w into 8 ohms) and then a pair of Merrill Veritas (400w into 8 ohms). The Merrill Veritas especially was capable of things that neither of the Pass Labs amps could do. Dynamics were much improved and as good as I remember with the D'Agostino amp. Bass was prodigious, more extended, and much better controlled to the extent that I no longer had to use my separate subwoofer. What people need to understand is that the Merrill Veritas sounded more dynamic then either of the 2 Pass Labs amps at both low listening levels and at high listening levels. Even at low listening levels, it was easy to hear the superior dynamic contrasts and the better bass control. You might think I'm a basshead and I'm not but because organ music is among the things I really enjoy listening to, bass dynamics is very important. Where the Merrill amps underwhelmed was with tone. In comparison to either of the Pass Labs amps, both Merrill amps sounded sterile and less involving. The sound stage was flatter, there was less air around voices and instruments and decay trails were notably truncated. I don't know if this is a class A vs class D thing but there was no way I could be happy with either Merrill amp.

After visiting dealerships and the homes of fellow audiophiles who owned either the ML 15A or 13A, I was able to also hear other amps including a Luxman M-900u, Constellation Centaur II, and the Burmester 911 Mk3. Of these amps, the Burmester was my favorite. Especially in monoblock configuration, there was plenty of dynamic grip and authority but what set these monoblocks apart were the very fast transients resulting in remarkable transparency. At nearly $70k for a pair, I struggled to justify this level of expense largely because they lacked a certain musical refinement that thus far, I have only heard with tubes or with Pass Labs amps. Because tubes are not practical for me in this room and because tubes generally cannot provide the same level of dynamics and control as solid state, I decided to explore my Pass Labs options one last time.

After speaking with Mark at Reno HiFi, he told me he wasn't surprised by my observations with either the XA30.8 or XA60.8 in my system and strongly suggested that I give the XA100.8 or the X350.8 a try since both amps had considerably more grunt than either the XA30.8 or XA60.8. Well, Mark was right and the X350.8 especially was a great fit. While the transients aren't quite to the level of the Burmester, the X350.8 comes very close. Especially when paired with Pass Labs' XP-22 preamp, dynamic contrasts are simply incredible with tremendous bass weight, definition and control even at low listening levels. Best of all, that beautiful Pass Labs tone is all there.

My point with my original post is that not all Pass Labs amps sound the same. Some Pass Labs amps are definitely soft but others are much more incisive, detailed and hit harder. Based on what I am told, the much more expensive Pass Labs Xs amps take these qualities even further. In response to your question, power output is one parameter but ultimately, it is not the sole determinant for how an amp will sound and how well that amp will pair with a certain speaker. Sometimes, you get more responsiveness and control from a higher power amp even if you only ever utilize a small fraction of your amp's power output capabilities. What I have found amazing with the X350.8 is that it has all the dynamic gravitas one would expect from a 350 watt amplifier but also the detail delicacy one might expect from a low power SET and the Ren15A is so resolving and so transparent that it reveals these qualities beautifully.
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Nice one Romaz!

I read your reply with much enthusiasm and learnt quite a lot from your post.

OK, now I understand your choice and selection of power amps. Yes, agreed on the power output, as it doesn't evaluate the true quality of power amplification. As you well know with stats it is that impedance curve that is critical to control and some power amps just cannot deliver that extra juice/stable current. However, the ones that can, really deliver all the glory like no other!

The Pass Labs XS series is top notch quality, probably one of the best in terms of Class A topology at its finest but does come at a pretty penny...

I sincerely think the X350.8's will give you many decades of musical bliss! I can certainly imagine how this sounds and launches that musical wave into your large room. The one and only chap I know of who has the Ren15a's down under definitely does not have the room size as yours. Hence, everything seemed over-energized at his place... Now with the CJ tube amp driving them is just glorious and I absolutely love the sound and music.

Each time I do venture out and listen to either the CLX's or Ren15's gets me all excited like a little kid in a shop

I'm still wondering if it should be the CLX's or Ren15's... Perhaps it all depends on room size and placement and obviously the amount set aside to pay for all this! No point stressing, I'll give it plenty of time... And just enjoy what we have at the moment.
Enjoy Romaz, wish I could have heard your system in person and taken some notes, must be one hec of an experience and a musical one indeed!

Cheers mate, RJ
 

krelldog

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2018
34
14
113
I have the Martin Logan Montis's paired with a Pass Int 60....The sound is wonderful..full...detailed and most importantly very musical. I'm extremely happy with the match.
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
INT60 another marvelous amp from the legend!

I have the Martin Logan Montis's paired with a Pass Int 60....The sound is wonderful..full...detailed and most importantly very musical. I'm extremely happy with the match.

G'day Krelldog,
I meant to reply much earlier but never got the chance until now.
I heard this amp with the ML's and it was indeed a wonderful sound! It was nearly tube like in quality with an added muscle factor of solid state power. I was told the INT60 is basically the XA30.8 built in as an integrated but I sincerely think it's far more than that.

I was nearly going to finalize on this amp but somehow managed to hold back as my ultimate passion was set on a pair of CJ monoblocks. The INT60 was also costing quite a fair bit more but I was ready to put down that extra . However, some other voice told me that if and when I venture towards either the CLX's or Ren15a, the CJ monoblocks would suit better in the long run, so I waited patiently...

If I did have the means for a second wonderful system with a choice of integrated amps to suit both tube and SS, it would be the CJ CAV45 and the INT60, they are truly marvelous designs that deliver the best in musicality, regardless of price.

Enjoy that INT60 to the fullest, with your ML's I really can see how much you are actually loving it!
Cheers mate, RJ
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,435
13,467
2,710
London
G'day mate, from down unda;

Unda in Hindi and Marathi means egg. And I just cooked Unda curry, using desiccated coconut for the masala, Goan style

C5924189-FF70-4A9B-B84A-AB5AD5FA1C42.jpeg
 

awsmone

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2014
1,616
513
435
Canberra Australia
Looks very good ...yum, damn cold here and this would warm us up
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Oh my! That looks fabulous!
How Many eggs in there Bonz? Are you going to eat all of that... at least think of us humble folk when doing so.

Remember to workout after all those eggs, too much colestral can clog the arteries... however with a gym session, you'll be able to do some heavy lifting, especially after eggs. I've noticed it helps a lot!

Cheers mate, enjoy that fine curry!
RJ
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing