Tesla solar and Powerwall to power audio system?

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Does anyone have any experience with this? One question I would have is how high quality is the inverter used, and/or is there one of higher quality which could be substituted if wanted. In any case, if there is enough peak current available this would be an intriguing way to potentially avoid the vagaries of utility company AC power.
 

KeithR

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I have an audiophile friend with PV solar installed and 2 Powerwalls coming. But the Powerwalls are for backup/peaker power. I think it would still be tough to go entirely off the grid.

He has actually experienced more noise since PV solar was installed and believes it indeed to be inverter-related. He is working through the issue.
 

pweg

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Jun 7, 2014
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I'm the opposite - i have 11kwh of panels on the roof and 28kwh of Simpliphi batteries ( a version of lithium chemistry that cannot catch fire).

Since their installation my power is clean and my stereo sounds much better - no restrictions to dynamics - my inverter can put out peaks of 9kwh so no way is any amp going to chew through that much juice. Also, it gets very technical and over my head, but my solar guys can fine tune the frequency of the power coming into the house so that it sounds better through my stereo.
 
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DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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I did not notice any drop in SQ after I installed my 28 panel system. Although a couple points of note, one- I am never actually off the grid...as I either give the grid power or take from it. ( this is the typical way a system works without a storage battery) and two- my system employs micro inverters, which I think is the way most newer systems operate.
 

rbbert

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Tesla claims their Powerwall, when properly spec'ed, can power your whole home, so I would think one could set it up with one Powerwall dedicated to run one's audio system 24/7 or as much as one would want. Then a second one if desired to run the rest of the house.
 

Rodney Gold

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Jan 29, 2014
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I have solar powered (and grid powered when the sun dont shine) battery banks running thru a 6kva pure sine wave inverter powering my room. The batteries are just storage , key is the quality of the inverter .. pure sine wave is the way to go

I have set it up so it ALWAYS uses the battery bank to the inverter , so its Ac to DC to regenerated AC (I use 6 x 200ah deep cycle batteries)
I did this cos of rolling blackouts and poor quality mains supply surges and brownouts
I also have a few powerpoints in the room directly from the grid via my normal Distribution board so can compare the 2 power solutions...I must say , I can't hear a difference between them..the only bugbear is if your powerdraw is more than the inverters rating the system will trip..never happened to me so far and 6 kva is more than enough to run my system..you also need to be very careful as if the power via the mains fails or is shut off due to repairs etc , there will still be live circuits ...
I use the same type of scheme for my laser cutters at work , on a bigger scale..this DID cure a lot of issues such as banding and other glitches.
 

213Cobra

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Aug 27, 2018
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I have PV + 2 Tesla Powerwalls. The Tesla batteries provide whole-house backup in the event of a service interruption, and the system releases stored solar-generated power into the evening after the the solar system can no longer charge. I'm in Los Angeles, so for much of the summer I am 100% solar powered.

Regardless whether you are running off PV or batteries power, you are getting your power from those sources via an inverter. The PV and Tesla systems work together but each has a dedicated inverter. SQ apart from noise is slightly-improved over LADWP grid power some of the time. Or it is benign. Never worse in terms of the usual considerations for tonality, dynamics and whether the systems are more or less musically convincing. However, I run two discrete hifi systems in my house and one of them suffered eruptions of new noises upon installation of solar, and some additional noise was introduced by the subsequent installation of the Tesla batteries. The two systems were not equally affected. One had minor new noise issues that were quickly handled. The main system, which happens to be located directly under the PV array, accumulated new noises that were not easily squelched. I believe non-line-borne RF from the PV array was at least half the problem, and line-borne noise from the inverters made a substantial contribution. In the more affected system, I had to abandon SET power amps and an active linestage. I also had to replace my ZYX Artisan phono preamps, which are built into unshielded wood boxes.

However, I made some necessary changes to the gear and am back to a quiet system. I hear no evidence of any peak power limitations from the batteries when they are powering the house. But then, my systems are built around Zu speakers of 101db/w/m efficiency, so I also do not need nor have big, current-sucking amplification in either instance.

It would take some research into inverter alternatives that also will pass muster with your local power company. LADWP is making up its regs as it goes along, so very small things can grind PTO approval to a halt. I didn't have an interest in disturbing that process. The inverters are considered the most vulnerable part of the system, and the most likely to require replacement within a decade or so. Anyway, my completed system functions smoothly and seamlessly, orchestrating the distribution of PV-generated power to my house, to to charging batteries, and back to LADWP as well as the batteries' discharge to power the house, and when to run directly and solely off the grid. It's all observable real-time in an app on my phone. Slick.

Phil
 
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jackson_k

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I have PV + 2 Tesla Powerwalls. The Tesla batteries provide whole-house backup in the event of a service interruption, and the system releases stored solar-generated power into the evening after the the solar system can no longer charge. I'm in Los Angeles, so for much of the summer I am 100% solar powered.

Regardless whether you are running off PV or batteries power, you are getting your power from those sources via an inverter. The PV and Tesla systems work together but each has a dedicated inverter. SQ apart from noise is slightly-improved over LADWP grid power some of the time. Or it is benign. Never worse in terms of the usual considerations for tonality, dynamics and whether the systems are more or less musically convincing. However, I run two discrete hifi systems in my house and one of them suffered eruptions of new noises upon installation of solar, and some additional noise was introduced by the subsequent installation of the Tesla batteries. The two systems were not equally affected. One had minor new noise issues that were quickly handled. The main system, which happens to be located directly under the PV array, accumulated new noises that were not easily squelched. I believe non-line-borne RF from the PV array was at least half the problem, and line-borne noise from the inverters made a substantial contribution. In the more affected system, I had to abandon SET power amps and an active linestage. I also had to replace my ZYX Artisan phono preamps, which are built into unshielded wood boxes.

However, I made some necessary changes to the gear and am back to a quiet system. I hear no evidence of any peak power limitations from the batteries when they are powering the house. But then, my systems are built around Zu speakers of 101db/w/m efficiency, so I also do not need nor have big, current-sucking amplification in either instance.

It would take some research into inverter alternatives that also will pass muster with your local power company. LADWP is making up its regs as it goes along, so very small things can grind PTO approval to a halt. I didn't have an interest in disturbing that process. The inverters are considered the most vulnerable part of the system, and the most likely to require replacement within a decade or so. Anyway, my completed system functions smoothly and seamlessly, orchestrating the distribution of PV-generated power to my house, to to charging batteries, and back to LADWP as well as the batteries' discharge to power the house, and when to run directly and solely off the grid. It's all observable real-time in an app on my phone. Slick.

Phil
I am getting my TESLA Power wall installed in a few weeks as well, do you think it actually has positive improvement over the grid power?
and do you run the TESLA system as a whole home back up right ? so basically it is always drawing from the POWERWALL, I am going to probably get 4 units, so that way I always have extra juice backup ready to go ! lol but I think as a net metered house, Powerwall doesn't really "SAVE" money , its just a cool backup system but hopefully we can tweak it to where it works like a STROMTANK conditioner that would be amazing !
 

astrotoy

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We have had solar on our roof for a decade+ now. (Interesting it came from Solar City - when I had only heard of Elon Musk as a cofounder of Paypal!) We paid cash for the unit and the payback time was about 6-7 years, so we have been getting free energy from the sun for the past 4 years. No powerwall at this point. We installed a big backup generator (17kW) several years ago (dual fuel - natural gas and LNG) so that in case of power outages, it automatically kicks in after 45 seconds. This was primarily for earthquakes and the occasional power outage.

However, the powerwall is intriguing. We have time of day pricing, which works very well for charging our Tesla and playing the hifi late at night. Daytime power (in Northern California SF Bay Area) costs over 40 cents/kwH, while night time rates are close to 10 cents/kwH (there is also an off peak rate in between). That means for us, when the air conditioning is on, we get most of our energy from the sun and when rates are lowest, we charge up our car. However, with a powerwall, even with no electric car and no solar panels, people can charge the powerwall up during the low night rates and then use the powerwall stored energy to power the air conditioning and other electrical needs during the high daytime rates, effectively arbitraging electrical power. I haven't calculated the payback time for the cost of the unit(s).

Larry
 

213Cobra

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I currently have my Tesla Powerwalls set up to provide full house backup except for HVAC. I'm in Los Angeles, so I don't have truly cold weather to deal with in the winter, and AC in the summer would deplete the backup power too quickly. If I add two more Powerwalls I'd probably reconfigure to house backup to include HVAC. My two 240v Level 2 car chargers are also not wired to the Tesla backup system. That's an LADWP thing -- I must get at minimum a 3rd Powerwall to include that. However, whenever I top-up charge from 120v Level1, I am charging from solar or battery-stored solar now. In addition to backup, the Tesla Powerwalls power the house after sundown or sometimes during the day if it's raining or unusually dark cloud conditions. The software dynamically manages power sourcing and distribution, splitting solar power between home and Powerwalls, switching the grid incoming power off and on as needed, etc. You can monitor powerflow via an app on your phone or tablet. If the grid fails, switchover to backup power is usually undetectable. Sometimes there's a flicker but usually not.

Whether a Tesla installation saves you money over PV alone is a matter of studying several variables that are regionally or municipally influenced, On balance, selling daytime excess PV power back to the power company real-time and consuming from the grid in the evenings seems a little more expensive than capturing the excess PV to consume myself in the evening. But that may not be true for you. I would have more panels installed but local power company regulations proscribe how much PV capacity can be installed, based on prior year's power consumption. Some people plan ahead and intentionally jack up their electricity consumption for a year prior to getting a PV installation, to get cleared for more generating capacity. If you are truly going off the grid, you can sidestep this, but if you are remaining connected to the grid, then the power company has approval rights for how much capacity gets connected to their grid. Point is, if I had enough panels to be sure of generating all the power I would need to in the winter, my summer surplus would be more than I can consume (if stored) or offset through sell-back. I'd be a profit-making enterprise probably 8 months of the year, and the power company won't let me do that.

During the day, unless it's a winter's day of rain, I am running on PV. That doesn't make my hifi sound better nor worse than grid. In the evening when I am powered from the Tesla batteries, sonic effects are not compelling and are often nil. But I sometimes can convince myself the batteries can pull that midnight "quiet grid" sound earlier into the evening. I think the reason there aren't more obvious sonic benefits is that in both cases, you have DC systems that have to power your AC house via inverters. There are probably some choices one can make among inverters, but the electricians and vendors involved are, in my experience, completely inexperienced (and uninterested) about the hifi implications of their gear and installations. So I'd have low expectations in that respect, and be grateful for any surprise benefits.

Powerwall installations allow you to configure through the Tesla app, how much capacity to reserve for backup when in self-power mode. If you set for 100% backup or backup-only mode, you will only draw from the batteries when the grid fails. In my area, if you have taken rebates, you are limited in how much capacity you can reserve for backup power for the first two years, and cannot run Powerwalls in backup-only mode. If you have solar installed, then you will draw directly from your PV panels and some of that power will also be diverted to recharging the Powerwalls. You will draw from the batteries only when you don't generate enough PV power for your current needs. The system will blend in battery power as PV output fades and falls below your consumption. And when the batteries are depleted, it will revert to grid power. If you do not have solar and have installed batteries as backup against grid failure, you will pull from batteries only when it makes economic sense, if you allocate less than 100% capacity to backup.

Point is, it's a smart system, and you don't get an override to force consumption from batteries based on your hifi habits, if they don't coincide with the system's decisions about when to charge, when to wait, and when to release battery-stored power.

Phil
 

213Cobra

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Aug 27, 2018
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>>The batteries are getting better. I would wait at least til year end when better options than Tesla will be available.<<

Batteries are always getting better. That "wait at least a year" foot-dragging will keep you burning fossil fuels indefinitely. Unless you've managed to jack directly into the Hoover Dam or other hydro. -Phil
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
>>The batteries are getting better. I would wait at least til year end when better options than Tesla will be available.<<

Batteries are always getting better. That "wait at least a year" foot-dragging will keep you burning fossil fuels indefinitely. Unless you've managed to jack directly into the Hoover Dam or other hydro. -Phil
Actually not. I am banking over 40 KWh per day
The battery I’m getting will be better than Tesla. For me it is worth the wait.
 

mountainjoe

Industry Expert
Mar 25, 2015
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eigenaudio.com
We have had solar on our roof for a decade+ now. (Interesting it came from Solar City - when I had only heard of Elon Musk as a cofounder of Paypal!) We paid cash for the unit and the payback time was about 6-7 years, so we have been getting free energy from the sun for the past 4 years. No powerwall at this point. We installed a big backup generator (17kW) several years ago (dual fuel - natural gas and LNG) so that in case of power outages, it automatically kicks in after 45 seconds. This was primarily for earthquakes and the occasional power outage.

However, the powerwall is intriguing. We have time of day pricing, which works very well for charging our Tesla and playing the hifi late at night. Daytime power (in Northern California SF Bay Area) costs over 40 cents/kwH, while night time rates are close to 10 cents/kwH (there is also an off peak rate in between). That means for us, when the air conditioning is on, we get most of our energy from the sun and when rates are lowest, we charge up our car. However, with a powerwall, even with no electric car and no solar panels, people can charge the powerwall up during the low night rates and then use the powerwall stored energy to power the air conditioning and other electrical needs during the high daytime rates, effectively arbitraging electrical power. I haven't calculated the payback time for the cost of the unit(s).

Larry

I live in California and installed two Powerwall batteries - the total cost with installation and permitting charges was around $14.5k and I got a PG&E SGIP rebate of $9.5k so the cost to me was very cheap.

The batteries are so much better than a generator backup system - no maintenance or fuel, instantaneous switchover on outages (though it does glitch equipment), and most importantly for me, they are dead quiet. They are also less maintenance than lead-acid batteries. I'm not sure as I haven't done a detailed analysis, but with the SGIP rebate, they may be cheaper than the other battery alternatives (lead-acid, gell) - though the SGIP rebate would apply to them as well. Perhaps someone here has done this comparison?

I live in the Santa Cruz mountains and our power goes out all the time so these batteries are a god send.
 

mountainjoe

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Mar 25, 2015
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Actually not. I am banking over 40 KWh per day
The battery I’m getting will be better than Tesla. For me it is worth the wait.

What other system are you waiting for?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
The biggest thing to realize IMO is that a properly built solar system does not change the sound of ones audio system for better or worse. Older systems with inverters rather than microinverters might result in some extraneous noise however
 

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