one dedicated line or two?

microstrip

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IMHO, connecting any wires to water pipes is a poor and objectionable practice. And yes, I know it was a common practice when some of us were small children ... :)
 

Chuck Lee

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Feb 5, 2015
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IMHO, connecting any wires to water pipes is a poor and objectionable practice. And yes, I know it was a common practice when some of us were small children ... :)
It never ceases to amaze me how people can have opinions about things that they have no knowledge of.
 

microstrip

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It never ceases to amaze me how people can have opinions about things that they have no knowledge of.

(...) But I didn't know how good things could get until I ran a dedicated Ground back to my water pipe from the massive ground post on the Torus.( I used all three wires from my unused 10 amp former dedicated line that was disconnected from the panel.(...)

IMHO, connecting any wires to water pipes is a poor and objectionable practice. And yes, I know it was a common practice when some of us were small children ... :)

I am addressing the part I quoted in bold. Apologies if it disturbs you.
 

Speedskater

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Sep 30, 2010
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It never ceases to amaze me how people can have opinions about things that they have no knowledge of.
AC power is governed by rules, regulations, codes and laws.

For knowledge and information on this subject, you might check with:
NEC code book
Ralph Morrison
Henry Ott
Bill Whitlock
Jim Brown

or even easier, the appropriate section of the Middle Atlantic white paper:

"Integrating Electronic Equipment and Power into Rack Enclosures"
'Optimized Power Distribution and Grounding for Audio, Video and Electronic Systems'

https://www.middleatlantic.com/resources/white-papers.aspx
 

DaveC

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The potential problem with attaching ground to the water pipe is lightening. A nearby strike will cause step voltage, or a difference in potential depending on distance from the strike. The step voltage between the water pipe and your service entrance ground could be extremely high, and you are risking electrocution in the case a person is touching a chassis when lightening strikes nearby.

Step voltage is what commonly kills , and is why you keep your feet together when sheltering from lightening.l
 

Pb Blimp

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In my opinion there are a few things right in this thread and a few no so right. IMO power is about three distinct objectives:

1) High instantaneous current to provide dynamics.
2) Clean power to keep the noise floor low. This includes cleaned and isolated from the mains and from inter-component contamination.
3) A grounding scheme that bleeds system ground noise while avoiding loops.

I am a believer that to accomplish (1) and (2) the best solution is to use at least four independent low gauge lines to an isolation transformer that is sized at 2 to 3 times maximum system draw. Many people mistakenly focus on maximum system current draw only and think a single 20 amp line is adequate. I strongly disagree here. Instantaneous current is the key to instantly recharging an amps capacitance to achieve extreme dynamics. (See Caelin Gabriel's work at Shunyata.)

I use a 75 amp torus with (5) 20 amp breakers and 10 gauge Furutech NCF lines to my receptacles. This provides a maximum amount of instantaneous current to my monoblocks, cleans the power from the mains and provides for isolation of all system components from each other. Components, especially SMPS's and digital devices many times cause more power contamination than the mains. Both must be addressed and most means of doing so limit current. Separate lines to a large transformer do this perfectly with no current limitation. Filters and small local transformers can't do this to the same degree. Also, using only three separate lines with mono amps on two lines and digital, analog and preamp all on one line creates the need for a separate isolation and clean-up plan for the components.

So this leaves the main reason people fear multiple lines and in doing so lose their substantial benefits, namely ground loops. This fear stems from the fact that most residential wiring schemes have not taken the necessary steps to ensure the electrical potential (resistance) at each ground receptacle is identical. When potential varies the stray voltages at components run across interconnects to go to the outlet of choice (i.e., a ground loop). Note we are talking about very low levels of potential variation at receptacles that emanate from different in-wall wiring run lengths, wire gauge, and induction that can incur from ground wires being too close to current carrying lines (contrary to the belief of many, ground line needs to avoid induction that such proximity can cause). By using high gauge, star ground wiring star system from the receptacle to a robust ground rod at the transformer the electric potential (resistance) at all 5 outlets is both equal and extremely low mitigating the need for any local grounding beyond the outlets to bleed ground line noise equally across the outlets with no ground loops. (Before Kevin yells, the ground rod at the transformer is alo tied to the ground at the mains to be in compliance with code.)
 
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twitch

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The potential problem with attaching ground to the water pipe is lightening. A nearby strike will cause step voltage, or a difference in potential depending on distance from the strike. The step voltage between the water pipe and your service entrance ground could be extremely high, and you are risking electrocution in the case a person is touching a chassis when lightening strikes nearby.

Step voltage is what commonly kills , and is why you keep your feet together when sheltering from lightening.l

Dave, keep in mind that not 'all' plumbing is metallic pipe, including what comes into ones house from under ground. I'm on a well and while there may be copper inside my house, grounding to it is of no real use since it is fed from plastic from the well head into the house.
 

Chuck Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2015
84
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The water pipe I am referring to is the main pipe that supplies the whole house.
The Torus is a large isolation transformer.It has a large grounding post .
May I ask the experts where they would run dedicated ground wire from the Torus if not to the main water pipe?
I attached the ground to the pipe on the advise from a retired certified electrician with over 40 years working as an electrician in numerous industries and power generating sites.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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The water pipe I am referring to is the main pipe that supplies the whole house.
The Torus is a large isolation transformer.It has a large grounding post .
May I ask the experts where they would run dedicated ground wire from the Torus if not to the main water pipe?
I attached the ground to the pipe on the advise from a retired certified electrician with over 40 years working as an electrician in numerous industries and power generating sites.

If the pipe is used for grounding your home's electrical system, instead of ground rods, then it's fine. If not you could safely attach a ground from the Torus to the service entrance ground, ideally run right next to the current safety ground to minimize loop area.


It's not that the pipe won't work as a ground, it's having two separate grounds (pipe and ground rods) that gets to be an issue if lightening strikes nearby.
 

Speedskater

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Sep 30, 2010
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Forty years ago, in older homes with a two wire AC power system, it was common to attach a Safety Ground wire to a nearby cold water pipe. But back then all the older water systems used only metal pipes. And inside the home it was relatively safe. But from a hi-fi perspective, it's the opposite of an Isolated Ground system.
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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The water pipe I am referring to is the main pipe that supplies the whole house.
The Torus is a large isolation transformer.It has a large grounding post .
May I ask the experts where they would run dedicated ground wire from the Torus if not to the main water pipe?
I attached the ground to the pipe on the advise from a retired certified electrician with over 40 years working as an electrician in numerous industries and power generating sites.

I am guessing your electrician also has your main ground at the electrical box tied to directly to the main water pipe mitigating step voltage concern. The other concern would be whether the plumbing line maintains its electrical properties after years of oxidation, expansion and contraction cycles at seals and so on. This could make your Torus unsafely grounded if the resistance is high and also makes for a more difficult path to bleeding the stray voltages in your system discussed in post #27.
 

microstrip

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The water pipe I am referring to is the main pipe that supplies the whole house.
The Torus is a large isolation transformer.It has a large grounding post .
May I ask the experts where they would run dedicated ground wire from the Torus if not to the main water pipe?
I attached the ground to the pipe on the advise from a retired certified electrician with over 40 years working as an electrician in numerous industries and power generating sites.

Quoting from http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2005/05/01/can-i-ground-an-outlet-to-a-metal-water-pipe

Q:

My daughter’s house was rewired in the 1950s. It has adequate wiring (#12 on the receptacles), but none of the circuits has a ground wire. Can I run a single ground to the receptacles, or do I need one for each circuit? Can I tie to cold-water pipes when they are available? (I’d make sure the pipes were grounded.)

Vince O’Brien, Emeryville, CA

A:

Clifford A. Popejoy, a licensed electrical contractor in Sacramento, California, replies: To answer your second question first, no, you can’t grab a ground from a cold-water pipe. Several years ago, this setup was allowed, but with the increased popularity of nonmetallic water pipe and fittings, there’s too much chance of an interruption in the metallic piping to allow its use for something as important as a grounding conductor. See 2002 National Electrical Code sections 250.130(C)(1) and 250.52(A)(1).

Even if the pipes are continuous when you install the ground wire, you can’t guarantee that the integrity of the ground would be continuous in the future, say, after a section of galvanized iron or copper pipe has been repaired with PVC. It’s not worth risking someone’s life.


End of quote.

Even worse, if there is an interruption and your equipment becomes faulty and leaks through this "ground" connection you are risking the life of people using the isolated water system. Surely some people accept that luck will protect them and disasters only happen to others.

I also found this interesting comment

"City water departments have begun to specifically install plastic insulators in the pipelines to prevent the flow of current and reduce the corrosive effects of electrolysis. Since water pipes are continuous city wide, fault conditions in adjacent neighborhoods could backfeed current into sensitive equipment causing unintentional damage."

Do you now consider I have a bit of knowledge of the subject? :)
 

Speedskater

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Sep 30, 2010
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We have to remember that there are two different grounding systems at/in a residence.
a] The internal Safety Ground system that is connected to the Neutral at the main breaker box. It's primary purpose is to trip a breaker in the event of a ground fault (short circuit).
b] The external Planet Earth system that is also connected to the Neutral at the main breaker box. It's there for protection during thunderstorms and high voltage power line failures.
More than a half century ago, it was common for the only connection to P.E. was thru the external water pipe. With more plastic pipe being retro-fitted this can be an unnoticed problem in older systems.

It's important that the internal & external systems only connect to each other at the main breaker box.
 

Chuck Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2015
84
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238
Thanks for all the info.I wasn't out to snipe anyone.However the tone was set when sticking wires to pipes was something that only toddlers would do was offensive.
So I have forwarded this topic to my electrician friend for his input.
Sorry, but if you have plastic water pipes then your stuck with spinning vinyl I guess!

Really,my whole point, which you have all missed is that my system sounds better now than it did before, even when I had three dedicated lines.
So maybe my way of adding another grounding wire back to the main point of entry of the water pipe isn't kosher,the Torus and the gear into it are still grounded back at the panel in the conventional way.There's two paths.In the event of a "fault" would the path to the pipe overcome the path back to the panel? Would my breaker at the panel on this dedicated line now be rendered useless because I have another grounding point?
I admit to not having the knowledge to answer that so I'm open to tap into the wisdom of others.

I've been at this hobby since the mid 70's, back when you could plug straight into the wall and be happy with the sonic outcome.
It's different now.
I've bought Shunyata power conditioners and power snakes, used dedicated lines, HiFi fuses, used 20 amp Furman balanced power conditioner,they all made a difference,but nothing broke thru the crud like the Torus with the extra grounding wire.

My sound improved when I went to one dedicated line to the Torus,but it got better with the grounding wire added to the mix.
My take on this is that you really don't know how big a role grounding has on sound until you hear it for yourself.

I was interested in the topic of grounding and add ons like those from Entreq and other companies.
Just didn't think what was in them justified the cost,and never heard them in a system.
Now I'm wondering what happens to them if there's a fault in the system .
 

microstrip

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Thanks for all the info.I wasn't out to snipe anyone.However the tone was set when sticking wires to pipes was something that only toddlers would do was offensive.(...)

I think you misinterpreted my nostalgic comment - by "when some of us were small children" I only referred to the 1950 and 1960s', when this was a common and approved practice. I remember seeing the bare threaded copper wires coming from outlets in the kitchen going to water pipes. My apologies, I would never imagine someone would read it as an intention to call him a "toddler"!

Happy New Year!
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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Really,my whole point, which you have all missed is that my system sounds better now than it did before, even when I had three dedicated lines.

Yep!

I've bought Shunyata power conditioners and power snakes, used dedicated lines, HiFi fuses, used 20 amp Furman balanced power conditioner,they all made a difference,but nothing broke thru the crud like the Torus with the extra grounding wire.

Your experience corroborates everything I have found and reported in my Post #27.

My sound improved when I went to one dedicated line to the Torus,but it got better with the grounding wire added to the mix.
My take on this is that you really don't know how big a role grounding has on sound until you hear it for yourself.

Bringing the potential to an equal level at each receptacle eliminates loops. Bringing it to a very low level at each receptacle bleeds off the strays that muck up noise floor. My point (3) in Post #27. You just need to check with your electrician to make sure you have a good safety scheme in compliance with code.

I was interested in the topic of grounding and add ons like those from Entreq and other companies.
Just didn't think what was in them justified the cost,and never heard them in a system.
Now I'm wondering what happens to them if there's a fault in the system .

If you accomplish the goal of low and equal potential at the receptacles these systems are wholly redundant IMO. They are meant to deal with sinking the local stay voltage at components which can be done with a proper star system in compliance with code for a fraction of the cost. As far as safety ground with these systems goes, the standard safety ground should be left wholly intact as these systems are meant to be a redundancy to grab stay voltage at extremely low current only. But as anything they need to be installed properly (the safety grounds should never be disabled).
 

microstrip

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(...) I use a 75 amp torus with (5) 20 amp breakers and 10 gauge Furutech NCF lines to my receptacles. This provides a maximum amount of instantaneous current to my monoblocks, cleans the power from the mains and provides for isolation of all system components from each other. Components, especially SMPS's and digital devices many times cause more power contamination than the mains. Both must be addressed and most means of doing so limit current. Separate lines to a large transformer do this perfectly with no current limitation. Filters and small local transformers can't do this to the same degree. Also, using only three separate lines with mono amps on two lines and digital, analog and preamp all on one line creates the need for a separate isolation and clean-up plan for the components.(...)

We usually do not realize that the Torus power transformer is much more that just a mains transformer - it includes a third coil connected to a network. This clever system eliminates noise from mains without contaminating the ground line - a patented development of Menno van der Veen, also know for his high quality designs of output tube transformers. See http://www.google.com.gi/patents/US6087822. After reading it I remembered of the egg of Columbus - it looks so logical!

We can expect that such system would react to grounding systems differently from other type of conditioners - IMHO only experience can tell us which way to go.
 

Pb Blimp

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a] The internal Safety Ground system that is connected to the Neutral at the main breaker box. It's primary purpose is to trip a breaker in the event of a ground fault (short circuit).

kev,

I know you are really know your stuff but can you help me out here? You have said this before and it's not to my understanding. The primary purpose for the Safety Ground is to provide a low resistance path to ground versus a local ground like a human in the event the device being protected has a short (i.e., the metal cabinet of a component is energized by a live wire). That said, the breaker will trip in the event of a current through the breaker above the breaker's rating. Period. This is an entirely separate matter from the Ground Safety being returned to the breaker. The pull of electrons through the breaker coming from any grounding event (short circuit) be it a human or a short to a local ground will trip the breaker. The electron's sourced from a local ground (like a human foot to earth) is what trips the breaker and the Safety Ground running back to the breaker box has nothing to do with this event.
 
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