New Music High End Innovation Show in Brussels, October 15 & 16, 2016

853guy

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Ooh - one last thing.

After the show, listening in my front row seat, Matts and Sven moved two of the acrylic SMT's behind my chair whilst I was captivated by Massive Attack.

Z-axis immediately deepened and the X-Y-axis immediately widened. Interestingly, the sound didn't become diffuse, images kept their corporeality without becoming etched or exaggerated, there was no lobing I could detect and the music lost none of it's snap. It stayed deeply immersive, organic and present, but the soundstage did increase dramatically. In fact the room as a whole felt nicely balanced - not too dead, and not too reflective. I didn't get a before/after, so I have no idea what the room was like pre-SMT, but from my exposure I'd say there's something genuinely worth exploring there.
 

853guy

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super overview of what you heard 853guy

Reading stuff like this is what for me makes this hobby so much fun

Thanks, Steve. Let me offer up a little show of gratitude again to Michel, Stavros, Matts and Sven for making the trip worth it, all the gear aside.
 

dcc

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I just got back from the event. The purpose of my visit was to show my son the Project turntable is getting for his birthday and I took the opportunity to buy some vinyls.

I visited a select number rooms but none really caught my attention with few exceptions. I did spend quite a time with Michel (Flyer) who is a very good friend so I may be biased a little bit. Overall I concur with the above assessment. The soundstage was fabulous and I am pretty sure that the SMT diffusers that were used at profusion did help in achieving such great result. Personally, I would have loved a little bit more speed and bass but the room was rather small which somehow justified the choice of the little Magico's. Such beautiful system should have deserved a larger room.

I also discussed the Entreq products with Michel. I already did an extensive trial of several weeks in my system but the results were not up to my expectations. We agreed having a second trial in the coming weeks.
 
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amirm

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Thank you for that witty write-up 853guy. My experience in both listening and meeting Aries Cerat folks was one of the highlights of CES 2016. They went out of their way to accommodate me including an after hours session.
 

flyer

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Hello 835guy, hello again :)

Just got back from the show (four hours to bring everything back in good shape, though not installed yet :( ) and have the pleasure to read your write-up. A sincere thank you for that and I feel very honoured by your accolades! I am sure Matts, Sven and Stavros are as well.

Actually the part I loved most is when you describe you think only you and us four felt the same uniqueness to what was playing, and that was very true! Although we could see that quite a number of visitors stayed rather abnormal long times listening, to come back again one hour later for a second session... it makes me hope and think we were not alone after all :)

It was a great pleasure having you in Brussels and I look forward to meet you again effectively as it was an enriching and utterly pleasant meeting with you, until you forgot your wallet , after which it got very pleasant effectively :D :D :D, with all due respect of course!
 

flyer

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Hello dcc,

Thank you for the kind words on the show.

I fully concur the system could do with more bass but it was somehow intended so as not to overload the room because we did not want to have to bring in basstraps and the like because we already had many pallets to shove into and out of the room.

Much looking forward to be back in touch soon!!
 

spiritofmusic

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835, a vote from me for most entertaining and most impassioned comments ever on WBF
I'm going to read your words all over again
:cool:
 
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853guy

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Thank you for that witty write-up 853guy. My experience in both listening and meeting Aries Cerat folks was one of the highlights of CES 2016. They went out of their way to accommodate me including an after hours session.

I concur.

flyer said:
Hello 835guy, hello again :)

Just got back from the show (four hours to bring everything back in good shape, though not installed yet :() and have the pleasure to read your write-up. A sincere thank you for that and I feel very honoured by your accolades! I am sure Matts, Sven and Stavros are as well.

Actually the part I loved most is when you describe you think only you and us four felt the same uniqueness to what was playing, and that was very true! Although we could see that quite a number of visitors stayed rather abnormal long times listening, to come back again one hour later for a second session... it makes me hope and think we were not alone after all :)

It was a great pleasure having you in Brussels and I look forward to meet you again effectively as it was an enriching and utterly pleasant meeting with you, until you forgot your wallet , after which it got very pleasant effectively :D:D:D , with all due respect of course!

Hi Flyer!

Well, I’m not normally this effusive. The easy part was writing. The hard part was trying to write in coherent sentences resembling English...!

I’m glad to hear there were others who may have encountered a little or a lot of what we experienced. I hope many more get to experience it in one way or another in the coming months. I truly believe the system deserves it.

Will be great to keep in touch, for sure. You’ll be pleased to know my wallet returned safely back with me, and remains at your disposal for our next meal together in Brussels. Given your extreme kindness and generosity toward me, you can even order a second beer. No dessert though.


spiritofmusic said:
835, a vote from me for most entertaining and most impassioned comments ever on WBF
I'm going to read your words all over again

Hi Spirit,

Aw, shucks.

As Geddy, Neil and Alex fans I think you and I probably understand the almost religious fervour that can overtake one in trying to convey the experiential gestalt of heightened reality to those yet unacquainted with that admittedly which is possibly best described as an acquired taste. Oh, but once you taste it…
 

spiritofmusic

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853, your words very much chime in with what I feel about what we two both, and obv many others, but absolutely not all, are looking for their musical reproduction at home
Vinyl for me has always been a no brainer, having bought lps from a young age in the mid-late 70s, although exposure to the SGM streamer/T&A Dac8 at 512 dsd/HQ Player has brought me a whole step closer to the analog gestalt on digital
However the lean twds tubes and horns has happened much later on in my development, with my Paul's "Road To Damascus" conversion complete with NAT Audio 211s
Horns remain a frustratingly mirage like journey, with so many summed up as one-trick ponies, reproducing any number of female vocalists beautifully, but any number of rock rhythmn sections lame and redundant
A good pair of horns great across a whole spectrum of music remains my Holy Grail
So, if you know of a pair that locks down Lee-Peart, Bruce-Baker, Squire-Bruford, Wetton-Bruford, Levin-Bruford, Rutherford-Collins, I think you get it, please let me know...
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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853, your words very much chime in with what I feel about what we two both, and obv many others, but absolutely not all, are looking for their musical reproduction at home
Vinyl for me has always been a no brainer, having bought lps from a young age in the mid-late 70s, although exposure to the SGM streamer/T&A Dac8 at 512 dsd/HQ Player has brought me a whole step closer to the analog gestalt on digital
However the lean twds tubes and horns has happened much later on in my development, with my Paul's "Road To Damascus" conversion complete with NAT Audio 211s

Hey Spirit,

First, I’ll try and share my thoughts on the vinyl/digital thing. My first digital experiences were Naim. Naim does some things great, but in a kinda obvious and metronomic way that tends to emphasize the beats rather than the space in between them. It’s initially really impressive, and gets more impressive as you go up the line, but after a while I began to tire of the monotony of its repertoire and long for a bit more subtlety and nuance. I then went Wadia which kinda did the exact opposite - lots of space and subtlety but no sense of momentum. Ultimately it was a backward step musically (and made me realise the importance of a great pre). A bunch of other contenders were auditioned and rejected, and in the end I decided I’d bide my time and invest in vinyl.

As I began to reacquaint myself with various options, I shifted away from belt drive solutions to idler drives (mostly modified Garrard’s and Lenco’s) which managed to make the most of the beats and yet allow the momentum to remain across and within the silences, giving the space in between the notes as much gravitas and significance as the notes themselves - in other words the “and” took on as much meaning as the “1” and “2” (if that makes sense. Sorry, English is actually my first language, but sometimes I wonder…). So far, I’ve yet to hear a belt drive or suspended turntable that does that as well (reel-to-reel does, or at least, can, and obviously, I’ve not heard everything, so all the usual caveats apply) but I had never heard digital do it.

Until Saturday. Like I alluded to in my previous post, the Aries Cerat stuff nailed the “1” and the “2” (etc) but also allowed the “e” and “and” and “a” to emerge fully formed - all distinct, all individually weighted in which the momentum and meaning of the silences was even more pronounced but without calling attention to themselves. Ugh. I’m struggling here. Maybe the best way of summing this up is to say that even slower-tempo stuff - stuff around 60bpm, jazz vocal stuff and symphonic fare - totally swung in which you were always aware of where the “1” was, but never at the expense of allowing the fullness of the silences and spaces in between to swell and peak and fade. It meant that even the spaces were captivating - there was still music happening in there - even when there was no rhythmic instrument “keeping time”, and I’ve never, ever heard digital do that. In fact, given there was no turntable in the room, I'd still go as far as to say that in terms of sheer weight, musical momentum and micro-dynamic filigree, I've never heard a better source than the Kassandra. And without sounding like some sort of brain-washed convert (too late, probably), if you get a chance I would definitely try and hear it. There’s certainly no other digital source I’d consider ahead of it, and we were only listening to the entry-level version. Sheesh.

Horns remain a frustratingly mirage like journey, with so many summed up as one-trick ponies, reproducing any number of female vocalists beautifully, but any number of rock rhythmn sections lame and redundant
A good pair of horns great across a whole spectrum of music remains my Holy Grail
So, if you know of a pair that locks down Lee-Peart, Bruce-Baker, Squire-Bruford, Wetton-Bruford, Levin-Bruford, Rutherford-Collins, I think you get it, please let me know...

As to horns… Oh, man.

I’m still on my journey. Like you I’ve had the best and worst experiences which is why I often think a pair of ESL57’s or LS3/5a’s might just be a better option. They're far from perfect but they do coherence better than most and in a way I think really allows a rhythm section to groove. Heck, after hearing the YG Carmel 2's I think they'd be far more acceptable from a sonic, musical and practical perspective compared to many of the disjointed, incoherent horns I’ve heard (which is a lot of them). I do like a lot of the more-domestically acceptable compromises from Living Voice (the OBX/IBX), Altec (604’s and 19’s), and DeVore Fidelity (the 0/96) but they lack the ultimate presence (and “inner detail” - cue geeky snort) of a field-coil compression driver and sympathetically partnered horn. Ultimately, like you, there are certain compromises I can live with (20Hz - 20kHz in-room linearity and pin-point imaging), and some I can’t (disjointed bass, lack of micro-dynamics and bleached harmonics). You pays your money and you takes your choice.

I’m planning (tentatively) on hearing some Western Electric replica horns driven by single 555’s (the 12a and 13a) and considering a trip to Cyprus to hear Stavros’ Symphonia in person (even my wife liked the CES video on YouTube). The idea of a Feastrex appeals to me but I’ve no direct experience. I should probably try and hear some of Wolf von Langa’s stuff, and the Maxonic/Natural Sound field coil speakers, but it all just comes down to time. That, and a place to accommodate them. Most of the bad horns I’ve heard have been wedged into spaces that just couldn’t come close to doing them justice. Having said that, the same could be true of any number of stats, planners and cone-driven boxes. And without a permanent home, it’s pointless to say my ultimate speaker is X when that’s fundamentally contingent on the space.

However, I do sympathise with your desire for a “good pair of horns (that are) great across a whole spectrum of music”. Ha. Join the club. My music taste tends to the extreme (all forms of technical, thrash and hair metal, Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues played by Nikolayeva, free, fusion-esque and avant-garde jazz, ridiculous 80's synth pop and new wave, electronica and dark-ambient noise, alt-country, and lots and lots of Coltrane, Miles and Beethoven), so I understand completely. If it’s any encouragement, the severe and intense reaction I had to an all digital system fed from a tablet in a small room with flippin’ Magico S1’s was musically superior to anything else I had heard up until that point. Horns are my ultimate destination too, but with the Aries Cerat stuff further upstream, I’m sure I could pair any number of alternatives with them and be happy forever.

Or could I?
 
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spiritofmusic

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853, Zu full range driver/high efficiency/tone dense speakers remain for me the only boxes that are a proper alternative to horns, and the lack of good horns all rounders
Unless these mirage horns become reality, Zu is where I'll keep investing my hard earned, with $30k Experiences flagships to be released at Munich 2017
 

YashN

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853, Zu full range driver/high efficiency/tone dense speakers remain for me the only boxes that are a proper alternative to horns, and the lack of good horns all rounders
Unless these mirage horns become reality, Zu is where I'll keep investing my hard earned, with $30k Experiences flagships to be released at Munich 2017

I like their approach: I've come to believe most of our systems are badly implemented and we need to focus on getting the amps directly connected to the drivers. That means eliminating the crossover between the amp and driver whenever possible.
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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853, Zu full range driver/high efficiency/tone dense speakers remain for me the only boxes that are a proper alternative to horns, and the lack of good horns all rounders
Unless these mirage horns become reality, Zu is where I'll keep investing my hard earned, with $30k Experiences flagships to be released at Munich 2017

Hey Sprit,

I’ve not had any significant exposure to Zu’s. They’re not that common over here…? I think probably you and I have been attempting to get as close to the performance of a full-range horn topology in a domestically-friendly package that doesn’t require the sort of real estate requirement or practical compromises (bi/tri-amping, active crossovers, bass horns) full-range horns usually require.

However, having tried a number of more domestically-friendly options, the great irony is that they came with as many real-world compromises of their own (placement, more power than their specs suggest, tweaking tweaking tweaking) and they still lack the je ne sais quoi (although I know exactly) that field-coil compression drivers feeding large horns and even larger bass units (15”, 18”) in boxes/baffles manage effortlessly.

So at the moment, I’m still on the side of two/three-way horns, rather than any of the trying-to-be-horns-without-actually-being-horns-in-a-smaller-package alternatives. Stavros’ Symphonia, the Maxonic/Natural Sound, the WE 12a/13a and G.I.P. 225 and G.I.P. 7003 aren’t actually all that much of a compromise in terms of listening distance, the amount of space they require and their sensitivity/efficiency. The latter, especially, is important to me as I want to stick with SETs (although considering how well the Concero 65’s drove the Magico’s it’s kind of a moot point). Yes, they’re all physically big, but when I had the Living Voice’s they ended up so far out into the room that I could have fitted any number of other contenders in that same space - a small footprint is not necessarily a guarantee of lots of free floor space. But like I say, until we actually find a home we want to buy, it all remains conjecture.

I’ve been thinking more about the YG Carmel 2’s as well, and why it was that my first impression was so overwhelming positive and the second less so. I think it comes down to this. I had gone to Brussels primarily to listen to the Aries Cerat system. So upon arriving at the hotel I visited the other rooms first, hoping the Aries Cerat room had “settled in”. When I sat down to hear the Carmel’s I had little to no expectation of what to expect. Initially, they were playing a large-scale orchestral work which actually sounded great. They then put on Time Out. I’ve heard “Take 5” a thousand times (and own the Legacy Edition on CD), so I was immediately familiar with the music. The speed, texture, coherence and dynamics were really, really impressive, with none of the etched steeliness or aggressiveness I often hear in ceramic or beyrillium domes. They sounded full, tonally balanced and harmonically rich, without any boat or overhand I could detect - I do have a historic penchant for sealed boxes. Funnily enough, they reminded me of two of my favourite speakers - the ESL57 and LS3/5a - superbly integrated and coherent, with the clarity and mid-band delicacy of the ESL57 and the punch and ripeness of the LS3/5a, but without either of their shortcomings (which are plenty).

In fact, sitting there listening to Dave, Joe, Paul and Eugene, I was really blown away by how the Carmel’s allowed each of them to occupy not only their own space in the heavily left-right soundstage, but how they allowed each of them to occupy their own space in time. It was really easy to hear that even during Joe Morello’s solo Dave and Eugene still had their own rhythmic sensibility, in which they pushed and pulled in time while Joe did his thang. It was kinda breathtaking, and the Carmel’s made it all sounds effortless.

I left shortly afterward and then spent most of the rest of the afternoon listening to the Aries Cerat system. It was only later, after a bathroom break, that I went back in to hear the Carmel’s for a second time. And although I love Peter Gabriel’s So (and especially Us), the music just wasn’t connecting in the same way. In all likelihood, I’d been spoilt by just how good the Aries Cerat system was, and through no fault of its own, the Carmel’s up-stream components weren’t in the same league rendering it sounding a little hi-fi and flat. On refection, I think the Carmel 2 is the type of small form-factor speaker that deserves ancillaries that bely its size and cost. That they worked so well with no room treatment I could see, kinda close to the rear wall, and in a hotel room under show conditions I think they’re probably deserving of more way investigation and attention. I’d have to listen to them again (and ideally, with ancillaries closer to my own preferences), but they’re the only two-way I’ve heard that might cause me to displace my fondness for two speakers whose deficiencies are legendary and attributes are easily undone when asked to do too much. Kudos to YG.
 

spiritofmusic

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853, where are you based? I would love to share a few drinks and lps with you. Your deep discussions are truly fascinating
My choice on Zus is not as a pseudo horn option, more that their SET friendly 101dB high efficiency, lack of crossovers and full range drivers 40Hz-12kHz (augmented by subs to 16Hz and super tweeters to 20Hz+), gets me more closely connected to the message of music than any other box spkr I've heard, and in this respect at least is an "alternative" to horns
I'm yet to hear the horns that work as well with prog, fusion and electronica, as they do with female vocal and jazz, although my very good friend Blue58's AG Duos pwrd by 45 tube amps comes as close as any I've heard
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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853, where are you based? I would love to share a few drinks and lps with you. Your deep discussions are truly fascinating
My choice on Zus is not as a pseudo horn option, more that their SET friendly 101dB high efficiency, lack of crossovers and full range drivers 40Hz-12kHz (augmented by subs to 16Hz and super tweeters to 20Hz+), gets me more closely connected to the message of music than any other box spkr I've heard, and in this respect at least is an "alternative" to horns
I'm yet to hear the horns that work as well with prog, fusion and electronica, as they do with female vocal and jazz, although my very good friend Blue58's AG Duos pwrd by 45 tube amps comes as close as any I've heard

Hey Spirit,

Due to a pact we have as a family with young kids to not give away any personal details online (that goes for Mummy and Daddy too), I can only say that we buy a lot of pain au chocolats.

I’ve read a lot of really positive things about the Zu’s but they’ve just never been accessible to me. And because opinion’s been well democratised, I’ve read probably as much, er… un-positive things about them too. Thanks, Internet. But yes, crossover-less can be brilliant - I really liked the Diapason Adamante because of exactly that (and it looks gorgeous).

My own experiences with horns have (thus far) convinced me it’s either live without the lowest octaves (which I’m actually prepared to do), or go all-in with 15” or 18”s in some sort of open-baffle or horn-loaded enclosure, which again comes down to space and distance to the listening position (I’m not a fan of ported boxes, transmission lines and Onken’s, but I have liked the Altec A7/A5 which is a ported bass horn, so there’s that). And you’re right - the reality is electronica, progressive rock/metal and large scale classical kinda needs displacement in the lower end to compete with the midrange of any compression-driven horn. Unfortunately the semi-active and external sub solutions I’ve heard leave me feeling a little underwhelmed - there’s just been too much discontinuity between the point in which they crossover, sometimes in frequency, and always in texture/speed. I’ll take integration and coherence over extension every time. Again, I’ve not heard everything out there, but with as with most things implementation and execution is key.

But if you’re extending an invitation to come hear the Zu’s, consider it gratefully received - I’d love to, thanks. You’re in the process of relocating though, is that right? We have family and friends in the UK but we haven’t actually managed to get over yet. And although I have a long short-list of gear I want to hear, man, this year has been crazy in trying to eek out time to go hear them.

Let’s stay in touch. We will get over to the UK at some stage, and I might take the opportunity to send the family shopping and come visit for an evening.

853guy
 
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spiritofmusic

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853, you're v welcome
I'm due to move into our converted chapel in Norfolk in the next couple of months, and will be installing the system in my newly dedicated 38x18 loft space
9 months and my remaining savings are about to be swallowed up, I have a couple of years of sticking with my system as is before any substantial upgrade
Rim drive tt/air bearing arm, true analog sensibility digital, soulful/powerful SETs, and tone dense/continuous spkrs await
Before my cash reserves go for good, I've installed dedicated lines isolated from the rest of the property via balanced power, and have some tentative acoustic treatments
I suspect I have a fair amount of music you'd approve of

Going back to horns, just heard the €60k 7' high Pnoe's from Greece fired up by Audiopax tubes, but the usual disconnect applied - great on the usual suspects, but jittery and one-note on anything involving a dynamic rhythmn section
For me, at that price, a pair of AG Trios/BassHorns or a bit more on Cessaro Liszts would make more sense
IMHO , AG Duos make the most compelling case for Real World horns
I'd be happy to get you to a really well balanced London-based Duos/45's set up
For me, Zus continue to "talk" to me across the full musical spectrum more than any horns
But, would be more than happy to hear that elusive horns contender
 

asiufy

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853guy,

Allow me to say your writings are just incredible, very creative yet very "grounded"! Very good reporting there, surely better than 99% of the stuff we read online about shows...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time and writing about the YG. The Carmel 2 is indeed a fantastic speaker, and as a truly transparent (ie not "voiced") speaker, what you heard was truly a sum of everything that was in the room, including that less-than-stellar source (that I know well) and typical Class-D souding Corona. We've had our share of amps pass through the YGs, and it's very immediately obvious what they (the amps) are doing, either positive or negative. Some will make the YGs lack bass, some will have thunderous bass, some will sparkle, some others will be dull and lifeless... Such is life with a speaker that transparent :)

Now, tube amps pose a different challenge on the YGs, as they must have power. By far some of the most fun we had was when we demoed the YG Carmel 2s in one of our big reference rooms with the Audiopax M100 monoblocs (100W)!

And then, horns... I'm a hardcore prog guy, and from time to time, I'd lock myself up in our "horns+tubes" room (Audiopax on Avantgarde Duos), and crank some ol' Genesis or Van der Graaf Generator :) The involvement level is very, very high with horns! It's just a more enveloping experience, like you're in a front-row seat, as opposed to a more contemplative and "panoramic" viewpoint from a YG, for instance.

spiritofmusic,

Interesting that you heard Audiopax on anything other than Avantgarde! Can't you get them to hook those Audiopax on some proper horns then? :)
Funnily enough, I was just at an Audiopax event this past weekend, where they introduced their new speaker, a 96dB efficient, full-range driver+tweeter, that'll do 35Hz-40KHz. It was beautiful on their new 15W integrated amp!



cheers,
alex
 

spiritofmusic

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Alex, 853 is the best writer on WBF bar none
Heard the Audiopax on Pnoe horns at the weekend
Blown away by how quiet those tube amps were, but at €60k, the horns were ultimately disappointing
European distributor of Audiopax loves them on AG Duos and Trios, and a demo may be on the cards
Re Audiopax full range spkrs, I'm sure they're cut from the same cloth as my Zus
 

asiufy

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spiritofmusic,

Yes, Geoff is pretty knowledgeable on all things Audiopax. I just found it odd that he chose to show with something other than Avantgarde, as that is a winning combination, and he knows it. Anyway, if you ever make it to a new audition, let me know what you think of the amps :) We're trying to bring them back to market, after many years...


cheers,
alex
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Alex, I'm not sure that was Geoff who set up the demo
Anyhow, the merits of Audiopax weren't best suited by the Pnoes in my humble opinion
 

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