TechDas Air Force One Titanium Upper platter

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,040
995
Utah
convenience in putting air in and seeing it's pressure is not a motivation for me to spend money and deal with the time, effort and expense of shipping the massive TT chassis back to Japan. Sounds like I will go for the pulley/PS upgrade in due time which only requires me to send in the motor and outboard power supply. That seems to me to make the most sense.

I'm with you on bladder replacement Chris but as Bob pointed while I was writing this post nothing is set in stone yet! For the current upgrade you don't need to send the motor the controller is a smallish pc board inside the main body of the table that you swap out and they'll send you the pulley with a new belt to install yourself. Depending on your serial no. (earlier ones like ours) the power supply might have to be shipped back to them otherwise it's not necessary.

david
 

The Phantom

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2012
60
5
248
Your local repair guy...

convenience in putting air in and seeing it's pressure is not a motivation for me to spend money and deal with the time, effort and expense of shipping the massive TT chassis back to Japan. Sounds like I will go for the pulley/PS upgrade in due time which only requires me to send in the motor and outboard power supply. That seems to me to make the most sense.

Hi Chris,

Just so you know - many of the repairs/upgrades on the AF-1 (and other models) can be done right here in the U.S. (Boston area)

Unless something really catastrophic happens to your turntable (such as a meteor hit), most of the time it does not have to leave the U.S., and we can handle upgrades, etc right here. There may be specific exceptions, and if so I'll let everyone know...

- Bob
 

The Phantom

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2012
60
5
248
rumors, rumors.....

Bob

Thanks for the updated info

At the Hong Kong show Nishikawasan was showing your Phantom Elite with a titanium wand for his Asian clients. Is this something that we can order stateside

Hi Steve,

Well, like the tapered spindle that Gary (prematurely) suggested was to tag along with the titanium platter, the all-titanium armwand is still in the prototype/developmental stage. Too soon to promise anything, including availabilty and price. But it does promise to propel the Elite far above it's present level (again), and also beyond other arms with carbon fiber tubes. However, be prepared: due to the same reasons the platter is costly, so will the all-titanium armwand if/when it becomes a product. Not price gounging, I promise, but the reality of working with such an exotic material.

(In fact, and speaking of pricing, the current Yen/Dollar exchange, coupled with the export price of the titanium platter, and if the usual margins dealers need to stay in business and not just pass things along at cost, SHOULD place the titanium platter much closer to $20k... Before anyone cries "Foul..!" again, just think of businesses you might be in and remember that it is what it costs to function and produce, whether it's a widget, a service or audio gear. And if manufacturers, distributors and dealers are to remain in business, and not just supply things at cost to audiophile friends, how else does the business model work? Just think of those unnecessary diamonds and other baubles that cost so much. Do we REALLY need an exotic Swiss watch to tell time, or is it quality, material expenses and pride of ownership? Same with sports cars - no one needs one, but what fun - and there they are!

OK, end of the editorial for this issue of the magazine, but believe me, folks, if you really KNEW what effort goes on behind the scene to design, manufacture and QC these things, not to mention after-sales service and support, you most likely would not want to do it. Before I got into the business myself, I had NO idea, and thought it was just going to be all fun. I've met some very nice people along the way (professional and customers) so that's the fun part, but the work and sweat is the late-night hours and other stuff to make it all happen. Lots of work and up-front expense for ANY quality manufacturer.

Long answer to your question, Steve, but I just wanted to forewarn you about the likely cost and why it won't be a cheapo knock-off item. Can it be done at a lower price? Well, if it were aluminum, sure - How about wood?, no sweat - And what of carbon-fiber? - definitely (not nearly as expensive or difficult to produce as some would have you to believe) - but when you get into exotic metals such as a one-piece titanium design - more rigid than any other option, by the way - the rules all change...
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,522
10,688
3,515
USA
Has anyone compared the SAT tonearm on an AF1 with the aluminum platter to the Phantom tonarm with the titanium platter?

Or the SAT on an AF2 for roughly $85K against any other arm and any platter on an AF1?

I'm curious about the relative sonic importance or value of these arms versus the differences between the standard platters and the new titanium one for perhaps as much as $20K.
 
Last edited:

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
Hi Chris,

Just so you know - many of the repairs/upgrades on the AF-1 (and other models) can be done right here in the U.S. (Boston area)

Unless something really catastrophic happens to your turntable (such as a meteor hit), most of the time it does not have to leave the U.S., and we can handle upgrades, etc right here. There may be specific exceptions, and if so I'll let everyone know...

- Bob

Thanks Bob ! That is good to know.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Hi Steve,

Well, like the tapered spindle that Gary (prematurely) suggested was to tag along with the titanium platter, the all-titanium armwand is still in the prototype/developmental stage. Too soon to promise anything, including availabilty and price. But it does promise to propel the Elite far above it's present level (again), and also beyond other arms with carbon fiber tubes. However, be prepared: due to the same reasons the platter is costly, so will the all-titanium armwand if/when it becomes a product. Not price gounging, I promise, but the reality of working with such an exotic material.

(In fact, and speaking of pricing, the current Yen/Dollar exchange, coupled with the export price of the titanium platter, and if the usual margins dealers need to stay in business and not just pass things along at cost, SHOULD place the titanium platter much closer to $20k... Before anyone cries "Foul..!" again, just think of businesses you might be in and remember that it is what it costs to function and produce, whether it's a widget, a service or audio gear. And if manufacturers, distributors and dealers are to remain in business, and not just supply things at cost to audiophile friends, how else does the business model work? Just think of those unnecessary diamonds and other baubles that cost so much. Do we REALLY need an exotic Swiss watch to tell time, or is it quality, material expenses and pride of ownership? Same with sports cars - no one needs one, but what fun - and there they are!

OK, end of the editorial for this issue of the magazine, but believe me, folks, if you really KNEW what effort goes on behind the scene to design, manufacture and QC these things, not to mention after-sales service and support, you most likely would not want to do it. Before I got into the business myself, I had NO idea, and thought it was just going to be all fun. I've met some very nice people along the way (professional and customers) so that's the fun part, but the work and sweat is the late-night hours and other stuff to make it all happen. Lots of work and up-front expense for ANY quality manufacturer.

Long answer to your question, Steve, but I just wanted to forewarn you about the likely cost and why it won't be a cheapo knock-off item. Can it be done at a lower price? Well, if it were aluminum, sure - How about wood?, no sweat - And what of carbon-fiber? - definitely (not nearly as expensive or difficult to produce as some would have you to believe) - but when you get into exotic metals such as a one-piece titanium design - more rigid than any other option, by the way - the rules all change...

To put things in perspective compare a Koetsu Jade and Koetsu Blue Lace. Same innards different body, price difference is over 10k. Sonic difference? small but significant. HOW significant is the subjective part. Think other cart manufacturers too, same huge differences between DLC coat or Titanium bodies with perhaps different cantilever materials. So on and so forth.
 

The Phantom

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2012
60
5
248
Thanks Bob ! That is good to know.

You're most welcome, Chris. Friends like you and others I've met at shows, via WBF, etc., are the payoff that is sometimes missing elsewhere.

And keep tuned as the newer versions of the Elite make their way to production and the real-world. To paraphrase the car dealer's pitch: "We will NOT be left behind in design OR performance...!" And remember also, all our designs are made so that upgrades can be incorporated into older versions with ease, and sometimes by the user him/herself..

Now, back to work..!
- Bob
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
You're most welcome, Chris. Friends like you and others I've met at shows, via WBF, etc., are the payoff that is sometimes missing elsewhere.

And keep tuned as the newer versions of the Elite make their way to production and the real-world. To paraphrase the car dealer's pitch: "We will NOT be left behind in design OR performance...!" And remember also, all our designs are made so that upgrades can be incorporated into older versions with ease, and sometimes by the user him/herself..

Now, back to work..!
- Bob

The new titanium arm wand if it goes to production sounds very interesting. Please keep me posted. Just so you know, I haven't written off the titanium platter as of yet. I am still thinking about it. One thing that was surpising about it was it's weight. I expected it to be as light as the duralumin...it's significantly heavier but a good bit lighter than the stainless.
 

MatthewC

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2014
58
4
238
No...the titanium is tipped up similar to stainless but with less edge/glare than the stainless. The treble is smooth and airy. The mid range is warmer and richer sounding than the stainless. The stainless has the most forward presentation of the three. It seems to me the titanium is probably the best compromise all arounder platter. Too bad it's so costly.

I have the good fortune to acquire the titanium platter as it happened to be stocked at a local dealer. Resigning to the fact that I probably won't be able to afford the Premium version, I snapped up the platter in lieu.....

In any case, the construction of the titanium platter is a bit different from the duralumin one in that it's actually bigger. It's same diameter as the main platter and the rim is also mirror polished so if you look side way at the platter, you can see a shiny "cap" on top of the stainless steel main platter. The duralumin one is more like an insert inside the main platter. The material used for the felt on top of the platter is also different and seems thinner as well.

More importantly, sonically, in addition to what Christian already described, the most dramatic improvement for me personally is that there seems to be a rightness to the sound, especially piano. While the clarity of bells, and density of vocals etc. were improved, listening to solo piano is what I found most thrilling about the upgrade. While I don't like to use fancy words, the "harmonic structure" of piano with the ti platter is just more right, more believable.

There is also a bit more ooomph to the sound as well, compared to the duralumin platter. While I don't have the stainless steel platter for the comparison, I used to own a Micro Seiki SX-8000 Mark II for quite a while. The bass is quite different from the stainless one (using the Micro as a proxy), where the stainless steel's bass is more like a tide that swept from the floor (which I find quite addictive really), the titanium's bass is tighter and ultimately, probably more realistic.

I think the titanium platter is quite a meaningful upgrade. If one is to order a new AF1, I would think it's the platter to order it with. Adding the ti platter is a less attractive proposition (as one will probably completely waste the duralumin platter) but nonetheless, an audition will probably be convincing.

PS. Arm/Cart is SAT/Koetsu Blue Lace diamond cantilever
 
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Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
16,017
13,346
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Beverly Hills, CA
Forgive me for this being only tangentially related to the thread topic but is the methacrylate platter still available as an option?

If yes, what are the reasons the fans of the methacrylate platter prefer it over the duralumin, stainless steel and titanium options?
 

MatthewC

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2014
58
4
238
Thanks for the kind words, Christian.

The lead time for the platter can be very long so you many want to check ahead.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,308
1,425
1,820
Manila, Philippines
Yup. No demand apparently. The Duralumin was the most requested followed by the stainless.
 

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