Ultimate Low Frequency Extension

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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Many full-range speakers have low frequency extension specifications such as -3dB at 20Hz or even -3dB at 16Hz.

Many audiophiles with speakers which reproduce down into the low 30Hz or high 20Hz range use subwoofers to extend the lowest frequency response of their systems.

I think the lowest pipe organ note is about 16Hz.

Gary specifies the frequency range of the Genesis 1.2 as "16Hz to 40kHz, +/- 3dB."

The Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer can reproduce 10Hz.

Mike's Evolution Acoustics MM7s have a -3db spec of 7Hz.

How important is it for a system to be able to reproduce 20Hz? 16Hz? 10Hz? 7Hz?

What, musically speaking, does a system sacrifice if it cannot reproduce these lowest audible -- and even inaudible -- frequencies?
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Many full-range speakers have low frequency extension specifications such as -3dB at 20Hz or even -3dB at 16Hz.

Many audiophiles with speakers which reproduce down into the low 30Hz or high 20Hz range use subwoofers to extend the lowest frequency response of their systems.

I think the lowest pipe organ note is about 16Hz.

Gary specifies the frequency range of the Genesis 1.2 as "16Hz to 40kHz, +/- 3dB."

The Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer can reproduce 10Hz.

Mike's Evolution Acoustics MM7s have a -3db spec of 7Hz.

How important is it for a system to be able to reproduce 20Hz? 16Hz? 10Hz? 7Hz?

What, musically speaking, does a system sacrifice if it cannot reproduce these lowest audible -- and even inaudible -- frequencies?

it's about 4 things....that are connected. cohesiveness, linearity ,ease/effortlessness and headroom.

do high SPL's in low frequencies expose less than ideal crossover points?

how easy do the drivers stay linear? is there enough driver surface so excursion is minimal when pushed?

what percentage of the full throttle does the low frequencies command and how might that stress the amps/power grid/room?

the lower the frequency level where the roll off occurs, the more linear things will be in the music octaves. that is headroom.

ideally you will have the technical capability to play music without getting out of the ideal performance envelope.

until you hear challenging music played on a fully capable system it's hard to explain it to someone. it's about suspension of disbelief. and the benefits of ease and effortlessness all the way up and down the frequency range are considerable. you are that much closer to the sense that it's not reproduced.

maybe the easiest test is a cello or standing bass. you think you know how it should sound. then you hear it come fully alive and be real in real space with all the authority and tonal weight and the hair stands up on the back of your neck. you are not consciously thinking low, low frequency....but that headroom, ease and linearity allow for a stress free event. you will appreciate it when you hear it.

once you have a reference for what is possible then you can appreciate by degrees when that even comes up short....and.... how important it might be to you. and it's not all or nothing.....it's degrees of how close you can get.

what is crazy is how much low frequency performance affects vocals. again; you have to hear it to appreciate. if I turn off my bass towers the vocals are quite different. and they crossover at 37hz.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Many full-range speakers have low frequency extension specifications such as -3dB at 20Hz or even -3dB at 16Hz.

Many audiophiles with speakers which reproduce down into the low 30Hz or high 20Hz range use subwoofers to extend the lowest frequency response of their systems.

I think the lowest pipe organ note is about 16Hz.

Gary specifies the frequency range of the Genesis 1.2 as "16Hz to 40kHz, +/- 3dB."

The Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer can reproduce 10Hz.

Mike's Evolution Acoustics MM7s have a -3db spec of 7Hz.

How important is it for a system to be able to reproduce 20Hz? 16Hz? 10Hz? 7Hz?

What, musically speaking, does a system sacrifice if it cannot reproduce these lowest audible -- and even inaudible -- frequencies?

Eminent Technology Model 17 subwoofer http://www.eminent-tech.com/rwbrochure.htm


Frequency response 1Hz – 30Hz +/- 4dB

suggested crossover 30Hz @ 18dB/octave

Sensitivity 94dB 1 watt 1 meter @10Hz

Maximum acoustic output >110dB between 0 and 30Hz.

Distortion typically 3% or less between 1 and 30Hz @90dB


Some reports I have read about is were impressive, but I doubt that it can be installed with the approval of your home insurance company!
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
What, musically speaking, does a system sacrifice if it cannot reproduce these lowest audible -- and even inaudible -- frequencies?
Your question reminds of a demo of Revel B1 subwoofer at CES a couple of years ago. It was in a small room and they were playing it at pretty high SPL with tracks that had really deep bass. There was a magazine reviewer who after a minute left in disgust because it was all too loud for him! My pant legs would flap in the wind with every bass note as it does in every type of reproduction of deep bass in other rooms of this type. Most people in the room were uncomfortable with such high SPLs at low frequencies. Of course, I loved it. :)

Most people have not heard such bass. And if they think they have, they really haven't unless they can report experiences like above. The rooms with best bass are usually designed for movie experiences where artificial low bass is easily generated and readily available. Play the Tron movie and watch the fight and it will throw you off your chair when there is such subsonic playback (16 Hz content from what I recall).

I don't hear such bass at rooms at high-end suites in audio shows. You have to be a fan of playing music at very high levels as our perception of bass is very low. By then the rest of the music will also be hugely loud. Half the time I have to ask these vendors to turn it up to drown out background noise let alone hearing this kind of reproduction.

So long winded answer is: do you listen to your music ultra loud now? If not, then I am not sure this kind of experience is necessary.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
37
0
Seattle, WA
And as I am fond of posting, here is member basspig's system reproducing 16 Hz at high SPL.


If you are not having physical manifestations of this type I am afraid you are not hearing what you think you are hearing.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
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And as I am fond of posting, here is member basspig's system reproducing 16 Hz at high SPL.


If you are not having physical manifestations of this type I am afraid you are not hearing what you think you are hearing.

Bring the ear plugs...lol
 

sbo6

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May 18, 2014
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it's about 4 things....that are connected. cohesiveness, linearity ,ease/effortlessness and headroom.

do high SPL's in low frequencies expose less than ideal crossover points?

how easy do the drivers stay linear? is there enough driver surface so excursion is minimal when pushed?

what percentage of the full throttle does the low frequencies command and how might that stress the amps/power grid/room?

the lower the frequency level where the roll off occurs, the more linear things will be in the music octaves. that is headroom.

ideally you will have the technical capability to play music without getting out of the ideal performance envelope.

until you hear challenging music played on a fully capable system it's hard to explain it to someone. it's about suspension of disbelief. and the benefits of ease and effortlessness all the way up and down the frequency range are considerable. you are that much closer to the sense that it's not reproduced.

maybe the easiest test is a cello or standing bass. you think you know how it should sound. then you hear it come fully alive and be real in real space with all the authority and tonal weight and the hair stands up on the back of your neck. you are not consciously thinking low, low frequency....but that headroom, ease and linearity allow for a stress free event. you will appreciate it when you hear it.

once you have a reference for what is possible then you can appreciate by degrees when that even comes up short....and.... how important it might be to you. and it's not all or nothing.....it's degrees of how close you can get.

what is crazy is how much low frequency performance affects vocals. again; you have to hear it to appreciate. if I turn off my bass towers the vocals are quite different. and they crossover at 37hz.

Very well said. I was ready to add a comment about how much low frequencies from subs or speakers that can effortlessly reproduce low freq positively affect mids, but Mike covered it in his last sentence... I have 1 Rel xover at 48Hz and 1 at 36Hz. Wouldn't live without them, live music in particular just isn't the same in terms of ambiance.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
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1,448
I have had a Velodyne in all of my various systems since 1993. I really could not go without it. I know that earlier on with Celestions and the SF Guarneris, my setups may not have been ideal. It got much better with the SF Strads. And today, we managed to get to a respectable measurement of 3db+/- from 15hz to 200hz when we calibrated our Velodyne DD18+ with the big Wilsons last weekend.

I found the room acoustically is not setup to take super-low bass frequencies too well, and we had to roll off sub 15hz frequencies at around 18db/octave to kill off some of the excess vibration. The wine glasses in the kitchen in the next room were vibrating, and it was making me nervous!

The results, musically, are a very satisfying 'completeness' of sound even when playing Anne Bisson. It kind of like looking at a statue with and without the base, or a photograph with an el cheapo temporary frame...or the beautiful carved antique frame with the mattes around it that really set off the whole photograph ...with a properly finished frame, it feels like its a complete piece of work.

Music comes across the same way, whether its orchestral, soundtrack, Pink Floyd, Hans Zimmer...or again, even well recorded jazz or small ensembles like Anne Bisson or live recordings where the acoustic space is actually captured in the sub-sonic frequencies, and you feel the sound 'open up' into your room because the sense of the acoustic hall ALSO becomes part of your musical delivery.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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it's about 4 things....that are connected. cohesiveness, linearity ,ease/effortlessness and headroom.

. . . what percentage of the full throttle does the low frequencies command and how might that stress the amps/power grid/room?

the lower the frequency level where the roll off occurs, the more linear things will be in the music octaves. that is headroom.

ideally you will have the technical capability to play music without getting out of the ideal performance envelope.

. . .

In addition to being eloquent Mike's reply raises a very interesting fact of life: we can "graft" external subwoofers onto a full-range speaker system to achieve measurable and hearable low-frequency extension and SPL, but such a system will not achieve the linearity and headroom of which Mike writes, because the main speakers still will be producing low frequencies at the extreme low end of their capabilities since their roll-off occurs within the audible range.

This advantage of a fully-integrated, very low-frequency capable system which, on its own, is able to plumb the depths of 10Hz or less (and thus is "more linear in the music octaves") cannot be replicated with an external subwoofer.

Also, Mike's point is a justification for allowing a subwoofer to take over the low-frequency duties of a full-range speaker and not -- as I like to do -- run the main speakers full-range and bring the subwoofer up underneath the main speakers. (I don't like the idea of inserting a new crossover in the main signal path.) In this way an external subwoofer could allow the main speakers to achieve the benefit of increased linearity in the music octaves.

On the other hand, I suppose some of this depends on the type of music one listens to. If one is listening to a solo vocalist with acoustic accompaniment, and there is little to no information in the 20Hz range, then, with that type of music, a speaker which is -3dB at 28 Hz might still be operating above its lowest frequency capabilities, and in a relatively linear fashion.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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In addition to being eloquent Mike's reply raises a very interesting fact of life: we can "graft" external subwoofers onto a full-range speaker system to achieve measurable and hearable low-frequency extension and SPL, but such a system will not achieve the linearity and headroom of which Mike writes, because the main speakers still will be producing low frequencies at the extreme low end of their capabilities since their roll-off occurs within the audible range.

This advantage of a fully-integrated, very low-frequency capable system which, on its own, is able to plumb the depths of 10Hz or less (and thus is "more linear in the music octaves") cannot be replicated with an external subwoofer.

Also, Mike's point is a justification for allowing a subwoofer to take over the low-frequency duties of a full-range speaker and not -- as I like to do -- run the main speakers full-range and bring the subwoofer up underneath the main speakers. (I don't like the idea of inserting a new crossover in the main signal path.) In this way an external subwoofer could allow the main speakers to achieve the benefit of increased linearity in the music octaves.

On the other hand, I suppose some of this depends on the type of music one listens to. If one is listening to a solo vocalist with acoustic accompaniment, and there is little to no information in the 20Hz range, then, with that type of music, a speaker which is -3dB at 28 Hz might still be operating above its lowest frequency capabilities, and in a relatively linear fashion.

Ron

This is not true. Subwoofer can be added and be beneficial to ANY system be it planar, cone or whatever. This is a fact. Many here are using subs and they know how this is done. It is a painful always tedious affair that takes time and requires measurements (and fine tuning with trained ears) for best results. Works beyond scrutiny have demonstrated that the best bass requires multiple Low Frequency sources scattered in the room in a regular pattern (Toole, Devantier, S. Olive) and irregular ( Geddes). The problem stems from the fact that the best position for bass is not the same as that for the rest of the spectrum and the characteristics, we , audiophiles hold dear ( Spaciousness, soundstaging, imaging, etc)... Moreover bass enclosure tend to require some volume, so there is a limit to how big you need your main enclosure to be, thus the solution to have separates enclosure to produce bass... The so called multiple columns of which the New YG TOL, Gen 1.x, the Pendragon, The VR-11 , 101 etc are good examples, but we do find other manufacturers providing their subwoofers for the same, Magico with their Q-Subs, Wilson with the Thor Hammer, etc... What we seem strangely unwilling to accept is that it is a business and the manufacturer want to sell their own ware rather than peddle that of others... It would thus be strange for Wilson to turn around and tell you it would be better to use JL Audio or Seaton with their Full Range! Or God forbid to use the Magico Q-subs with their XLF!!
Moreover the headroom and linearity in the bass that you are mentioning will come from more subwoofers... and it can be integrated to the point of total disappearance of the subwoofers as sound sources. And it doesn't require that the subs be of the same brand. This point is the truth. THe perception and it is encouraged by the manufacturer and perhaps helped by the audiophile psychology, is that subs and mains need to be of the same brand. We, likely feel comfortable with an All -MAgico or Wilson or Martin Logan "system". Truth to be told the manufacturer likely would have provided ancillary components to help the integration in the form of controller , crossover and in some cases DSP... but it could well be that those components from other manufacturer could provide better results.. JL Audio is a case in point. It could be said also that some subwoofers from other manufacturer handily outperform those from Famous Full Range manufacturers.. I could cite the stupendously good Seaton subwoofers, the JL Audio subwoofers, the Paradigm subwoofers. Those subwoofers are superlative performers and could teach a thing or two to brutally priced subwoofers . Our hobby is definitely not predicated on ROI: spending 10 times more more often than not result in a 5% improvement if that much and often a 0%!!. We are reluctant to admit it but we develop a certain orthodox thinking and some things/brands don't resonate with our audiophiles sensibilities so you rarely see people going for Seaton or Paradigm. JL Audio has found a way to be accepted and for good reasons...

Back to the matters at hand: headroom and linearity. These can be obtained with "grafted" subwoofers. The more subwoofers, the better in term of both linearity and headroom...Better than even 4-columns systems can manage And strangely in term of better perception of the sound elsewhere: The midrange opens up in a startling way when your bass is clean, even the treble comes in better focus and cleanliness. It is not easy thing to accomplish and (again!) requires the audiophile to think outside his/her comfort zone. There are some stupendously good subwoofers out there and they can help bring many a system to the 4-columns level at a much reduced cash outlay and often better objective and subjective results. I would be willing to bet that for the cash outlay of say One Wilson THor Hammer + Appropriate amp to drive it,that a Quatuor of JL Audio Fathom F212 or Seaton Submersive 18" would not provide much, much better, much more linear, results and multiple time the headroom... One could counter with dual Wilson Thor Hammer in which case it is more than likely that 4 (Other brands) subs well positioned and configured ( appropriate, EQ, Level and delay and not all in front people !! :)) in a room will surpass the performance of the dual famous manufacturer subs ... subjectively as well.
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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About 30 years ago I discovered the benefits in adding a sub to my Maggies but have always used a crossover to roll off the mains. Substantial reduction in distortion and increase in available dynamic range results from offloading the mains, but of course integration can be tricky and the sub must be a good one.

As to the need for subs, IME the vast majority of speakers (which does not necessarily include the high-end speakers it seems most WBF members own) do not reproduce LF sound cleanly despite being rated for them. Distortion tends to be high below maybe 40 or 50 Hz when driven hard, and the nature of our hearing means LF energy is going to be much larger than HF energy in most source material. Taking that off the mains significantly improves their performance. My beloved Maggies exhibit hideous distortion when driven hard down low. Unfortunately, the harmonics are often much easier to hear than the fundamental LF tones, and to many the sound is "richer" or "fuller" even though what they are really hearing is distortion (and often lots of it).

Another reason for subs, and extended LF response in general, is that a lot of very LF content exists in music as well as movies. Everyone knows about explosions and gunshots, but the pressure wave from a kick or kettle drum, percussives from plucked (e.g. guitar) or struck (e.g. piano hammers) strings, and subharmonics from mixing tones can reach very low.

Finally, multiple subs can be placed to smooth in-room frequency response, helping to cancel room modes and boundary reflections so the overall frequency response at the listening position is much flatter than one would otherwise achieve.

FWIWFM - Don
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Ron

This is not true. Subwoofer can be added and be beneficial to ANY system be it planar, cone or whatever. This is a fact. Many here are using subs and they know how this is done. It is a painful always tedious affair that takes time and requires measurements (and fine tuning with trained ears) for best results. Works beyond scrutiny have demonstrated that the best bass requires multiple Low Frequency sources scattered in the room in a regular pattern (Toole, Devantier, S. Olive) and irregular ( Geddes). The problem stems from the fact that the best position for bass is not the same as that for the rest of the spectrum and the characteristics, we , audiophiles hold dear ( Spaciousness, soundstaging, imaging, etc)... Moreover bass enclosure tend to require some volume, so there is a limit to how big you need your main enclosure to be, thus the solution to have separates enclosure to produce bass... The so called multiple columns of which the New YG TOL, Gen 1.x, the Pendragon, The VR-11 , 101 etc are good examples, but we do find other manufacturers providing their subwoofers for the same, Magico with their Q-Subs, Wilson with the Thor Hammer, etc... What we seem strangely unwilling to accept is that it is a business and the manufacturer want to sell their own ware rather than peddle that of others... It would thus be strange for Wilson to turn around and tell you it would be better to use JL Audio or Seaton with their Full Range! Or God forbid to use the Magico Q-subs with their XLF!!
Moreover the headroom and linearity in the bass that you are mentioning will come from more subwoofers... and it can be integrated to the point of total disappearance of the subwoofers as sound sources. And it doesn't require that the subs be of the same brand. This point is the truth. THe perception and it is encouraged by the manufacturer and perhaps helped by the audiophile psychology, is that subs and mains need to be of the same brand. We, likely feel comfortable with an All -MAgico or Wilson or Martin Logan "system". Truth to be told the manufacturer likely would have provided ancillary components to help the integration in the form of controller , crossover and in some cases DSP... but it could well be that those components from other manufacturer could provide better results.. JL Audio is a case in point. It could be said also that some subwoofers from other manufacturer handily outperform those from Famous Full Range manufacturers.. I could cite the stupendously good Seaton subwoofers, the JL Audio subwoofers, the Paradigm subwoofers. Those subwoofers are superlative performers and could teach a thing or two to brutally priced subwoofers . Our hobby is definitely not predicated on ROI: spending 10 times more more often than not result in a 5% improvement if that much and often a 0%!!. We are reluctant to admit it but we develop a certain orthodox thinking and some things/brands don't resonate with our audiophiles sensibilities so you rarely see people going for Seaton or Paradigm. JL Audio has found a way to be accepted and for good reasons...

Back to the matters at hand: headroom and linearity. These can be obtained with "grafted" subwoofers. The more subwoofers, the better in term of both linearity and headroom...Better than even 4-columns systems can manage And strangely in term of better perception of the sound elsewhere: The midrange opens up in a startling way when your bass is clean, even the treble comes in better focus and cleanliness. It is not easy thing to accomplish and (again!) requires the audiophile to think outside his/her comfort zone. There are some stupendously good subwoofers out there and they can help bring many a system to the 4-columns level at a much reduced cash outlay and often better objective and subjective results. I would be willing to bet that for the cash outlay of say One Wilson THor Hammer + Appropriate amp to drive it,that a Quatuor of JL Audio Fathom F212 or Seaton Submersive 18" would not provide much, much better, much more linear, results and multiple time the headroom... One could counter with dual Wilson Thor Hammer in which case it is more than likely that 4 (Other brands) subs well positioned and configured ( appropriate, EQ, Level and delay and not all in front people !! :)) in a room will surpass the performance of the dual famous manufacturer subs ... subjectively as well.

Dear Frantz,

Respectfully, I think you might have misunderstood me. I did not write a broad criticism of external subwoofers. I am a big fan of external subwoofers. I have had a REL Stentor III for 20 years.

I was making only the narrow point that we cannot count among the many benefits of subwoofers their ability to allow the main speakers to operate within their most linear range unless we insert the subwoofer into system via a crossover and relieve the main speakers of their lowest frequency duties. I was merely elaborating on Mike's "linearity" point.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
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405
Dear Frantz,

Respectfully, I think you might have misunderstood me. I did not write a broad criticism of external subwoofers. I am a big fan of external subwoofers. I have had a REL Stentor III for 20 years.

I was making only the narrow point that we cannot count among the many benefits of subwoofers their ability to allow the main speakers to operate within their most linear range unless we insert the subwoofer into system via a crossover and relieve the main speakers of their lowest frequency duties. I was merely elaborating on Mike's "linearity" point.

I get your point and it is sensible.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 24, 2015
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Beverly Hills, CA
Thank you, Frantz. And I agree with you that there is great quality and value in the products from the dedicated subwoofer manufacturers like JL Audio and Mark Seaton.
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
3,820
239
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Reno, NV
Although I philosophically understand Ron's and others' point about not putting an extra cross-over into the audio path to the main speakers (that's how I currently have my system configures as well), I think Evolution Acoustics, for one, with their EXAct filter network, has shown that this doesn't necessarily have to have ill effects. In fact it's likely that is has significantly beneficial effects. This is also probably true for the other statement speakers (e.g., NOLA Concert Grand, MBL X-treme, etc) with separate subwoofer towers as part of the integrated system. Any of these systems could be designed with just a low-pass filter to the subs, but that's not what the designers chose. That doesn't necessarily mean that adding a sub or two to just any pair of nearly full-range speakers, with or without a full cross-over, will bring the same kind of benefits one sees in those integrated systems designed that way from the ground up.
 

microstrip

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(...) That doesn't necessarily mean that adding a sub or two to just any pair of nearly full-range speakers, with or without a full cross-over, will bring the same kind of benefits one sees in those integrated systems designed that way from the ground up.

Surely. Audiophile knowledge, experience and facts have been telling us how the integration of the low bass is very critical and affects the whole system. Manufacturers such as Gary Koh, Andy Rockport, David Wilson and Alon Wolf explain us why, and what they have done to do it correctly. They implement systems and carry demo's using these dedicated combinations. We find great systems in the net with detailed descriptions of their sound quality of the people they invite in magazines and in the net. Should we change our perception just because the same people who tell everything decently designed sounds the same and high-end is just our imagination tell us to do so?

In some particular systems, due to many constrains - space, budget, upgrade of existing system, nonexistence of alternative by the speaker manufacturer - quality subs such as JL Audio have their place. Such systems can represent great value for money and excellent sound quality. But IMHO , dedicated systems such as Mike MM7's, Thor/XLF, Genesis Dragon's or Audio Physics Gaudi's represent the SOTA in overall sound quality. YMMV, as they say.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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I think one area where (i will hazard a guess) standalone subs could use some more work is in the quality/transparency of their crossover network. I think on the adjustability/variability, we have a few subs which have become quite sophisticated. I know Velodyne's standalone SMS-1 has been around for some time, and it is essentially built into their reference subs. I like the adjustability...but i am NOT so convinced about the quality of the crossover network as relates to the main speakers.

However, i think JL have now come out with a super outboard adjustable crossover. Wilson's standalone crossover is apparently quite good now and of course is designed no doubt with the big X's in mind in terms of crossover for them as the main speakers. (Interestingly, i have heard from Distributors their original crossover was not as good as perhaps it might have been...but this one is quite good.)

I think tbh, more people (incl me) would use the crossover in subs like the Velodyne to crossover the main speakers if we were convinced it was that good.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
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Although I philosophically understand Ron's and others' point about not putting an extra cross-over into the audio path to the main speakers (that's how I currently have my system configures as well), I think Evolution Acoustics, for one, with their EXAct filter network, has shown that this doesn't necessarily have to have ill effects. In fact it's likely that is has significantly beneficial effects. This is also probably true for the other statement speakers (e.g., NOLA Concert Grand, MBL X-treme, etc) with separate subwoofer towers as part of the integrated system. Any of these systems could be designed with just a low-pass filter to the subs, but that's not what the designers chose. That doesn't necessarily mean that adding a sub or two to just any pair of nearly full-range speakers, with or without a full cross-over, will bring the same kind of benefits one sees in those integrated systems designed that way from the ground up.

I am with you in regards to the benefits/cons of crossovers. it seems (like many things) to come down to implementation. Andy Payor of Rockport does not even have separate sub towers, and he STILL has an active crossover for his 6'9" tall Arrakis speakers, each with 2 x 15" bass cones (4 in total for a pair). I think his view was that this adjustability was critically important to the ultimate finetuning of a setup of his speakers in any given listening room.
 

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