Some interesting stuff at Munich 2016

amirm · May 8, 2016

BTW, I fixed the images in the first page. Will work on the rest as I find time.

NorthStar · May 9, 2016

microstrip said:
Just copy the image in the clipboard (press right button mouse and click copy image in Firefox) and then paste it in Irfanview or similar viewer. All you have now is to rotate it (L or R in Irfanview).

amirm said:
It is simpler than that. Just same the image to a file. Select them, right click on them and click on rotate. That's it. You don't need any software.

amirm said:
BTW, I fixed the images in the first page. Will work on the rest as I find time.

You did! Thx a whole bunch Amir.

Today I took some time looking @ pictures from the World's High End Audio Show in Munich, from few websites...WoW!
This is almost like being in Dubai in the highest and best suites. I'm not sure that they have the audio gear though in Dubai? Yes, I'm pretty sure some have.
It is simply a beautiful blue planet we live on, with beautiful people, and beautiful audio gear to reproduce beautiful music. ...Munich included, except not too many Moms there, older and younger. ...And single girls too. Actually there are very very very few women over there, from all the pictures I saw on the Internet that were taken by audiophiles over there, and pro photographers. But then, people are there for the sound quality, and the quality looking gear...beautifully designed audio components...in and out. ...The best!

spiritofmusic · May 9, 2016

bonzo75 said:
The WE this year were very different from the last two years. He gets fifteen WE stock from his museum each year. I am with main purpose of spending most of my two days there and ended up with fifteen minutes or less.

Did you demo your own stuff in the Wilson ypsilon room.

Meeting the designer of zus is also high on my priority list, next only to a led zep reunion

No need to demo my stuff. The guys were playing a variety of music, so I wasn't driven crazy by weedy cover versions of "isn't she lovely?" etc. Enough range for me to get a handle on the sound.
IMHO, Ypsilon is right up there in the top five of digital front ends and amp ranges (I only consider Koda amps to be truly superior).
For them to transform the Alexias into kings of transparency and tone was quite some magic trick.
Good luck w/that Zep reunion, I got to meet Sean well ahead of that, and he was a delight all 'round.

spiritofmusic · May 9, 2016

morricab said:
Well, then I guess you didn't really get to hear the Living Voice Vox Palladian/Kondo set up if you think the Ypsilon/Wilson room was far and away the best. NOTHING else sound really close to the real thing...only the LV/Kondo. Don't get me wrong, I liked the Ypsilon/wilson room a lot (it was my top 3 rooms with conventional loudspeakers, however, I think Ypsilons own speakers sound even better than the Wilsons) but it had none of the realism that the LV/Kondo conjures up with absolute ease. Nothing else did either, not Tune Audio/Trafomatic, not Zellaton and whatever, not Cessaro, definitely not Kharma...no one.

I would agree that the WE vintage horns was not maybe as good as the last couple of years, but worst sound at the show?? That I can definitely not agree with as with some music (usually without too much deep bass content) it had a very compelling sound.

BTW, did you hear by chance the Nagra/Wilson set up? I thought in a lot of ways it was as good as the Ypsilon/Wilson. Very delicate and refined, which surprised me as the amps were pure SS. Also, what did you think of the Zellaton Supreme room? I thought that speaker has REAL potential (a really high price too!!) but the electronics were a bit too analytical for the speaker ultimately.

For me the biggest pleasant surprise was the KR Audio and RdAcoustic horns on the ground floor. Amazing immediacy with real bass courtesy of a very well designed horn...all from a humble Fostex full-range driver. For 10K from a Czech company it was the giant killer of the show and KR is am amp that simply delivers time and time again. They didn't even have a really good source!

Morricab, I have to totally disagree w/you re the LV. One of the most disappointing experiences I've had in the high end. I went there on two consecutive days, and all I could her was driver disconnect of the highest order. That was bad enough w/classical and jazz, but when rock came on, it really fell apart.
This is all YMMV/IMHO etc etc. I really do believe gear, and esp spkrs, 'talk' to us, and when they do, we are able to absorb deficiencies much better than the next person who's not a fan.

For me, the ypsilon/Wilson room got so much right, incl truly stellar 16/44, that any shortcomings were inaudible to me.
Agree w/you on the Nagra room, something in the tone here was spookily realistic.

A big lesson I learnt was that despite my love for horns, they presented varying levels of compromise. Except one. The LV's and Animas fell apart playing rock, the Cessaro Beta's/B'horns despite being beyond thrilling and realistic on orchestral and jazz had no real bass propulsion, and I wonder how much rhythmn/timing on rock would be compromised by that.
Indeed, only the AG room, playing the Uno XD's, seemed to get the balance right, getting horn "rightness" w/true capability of playing rock/electronica etc. Certainly their demo was the best one for horns across different genres of music.

audio-land · May 9, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Morricab, I have to totally disagree w/you re the LV. One of the most disappointing experiences I've had in the high end. I went there on two consecutive days, and all I could her was driver disconnect of the highest order. That was bad enough w/classical and jazz, but when rock came on, it really fell apart.
This is all YMMV/IMHO etc etc. I really do believe gear, and esp spkrs, 'talk' to us, and when they do, we are able to absorb deficiencies much better than the next person who's not a fan.

For me, the ypsilon/Wilson room got so much right, incl truly stellar 16/44, that any shortcomings were inaudible to me.
Agree w/you on the Nagra room, something in the tone here was spookily realistic.

A big lesson I learnt was that despite my love for horns, they presented varying levels of compromise. Except one. The LV's and Animas fell apart playing rock, the Cessaro Beta's/B'horns despite being beyond thrilling and realistic on orchestral and jazz had no real bass propulsion, and I wonder how much rhythmn/timing on rock would be compromised by that.
Indeed, only the AG room, playing the Uno XD's, seemed to get the balance right, getting horn "rightness" w/true capability of playing rock/electronica etc. Certainly their demo was the best one for horns across different genres of music.

Beta / Gamma have active subwoofers at 100-140hz cut off depending on rooms etc. So basically, it can be adjusted to any level depending on music and taste of the listener. We like a db or two db higher gain than manufacture suggested for our music which is included heavy metal. Playing Avenged Sevenfold Shepherd of Fire through Gamma/Beta with front loaded bass horn at 100db is certainly heaven on earth.

morricab · May 9, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Morricab, I have to totally disagree w/you re the LV. One of the most disappointing experiences I've had in the high end. I went there on two consecutive days, and all I could her was driver disconnect of the highest order. That was bad enough w/classical and jazz, but when rock came on, it really fell apart.
This is all YMMV/IMHO etc etc. I really do believe gear, and esp spkrs, 'talk' to us, and when they do, we are able to absorb deficiencies much better than the next person who's not a fan.

For me, the ypsilon/Wilson room got so much right, incl truly stellar 16/44, that any shortcomings were inaudible to me.
Agree w/you on the Nagra room, something in the tone here was spookily realistic.

A big lesson I learnt was that despite my love for horns, they presented varying levels of compromise. Except one. The LV's and Animas fell apart playing rock, the Cessaro Beta's/B'horns despite being beyond thrilling and realistic on orchestral and jazz had no real bass propulsion, and I wonder how much rhythmn/timing on rock would be compromised by that.
Indeed, only the AG room, playing the Uno XD's, seemed to get the balance right, getting horn "rightness" w/true capability of playing rock/electronica etc. Certainly their demo was the best one for horns across different genres of music.

Well, as one who comes from many many years with full-range electrostats, ribbons, time coherent conventional speakers and now time coherent two-way horns, I am one of the most sensitive people I know with regards to driver integration and disconnect between drivers in a multi-way system. I didn't even think it was possible to do what LV has done but to my ears they have and stunningly better than anyone else for that matter. Perhaps you were in the front row? They did sound the best sitting in the back two rows of seats. Like all large multi-way speakers it takes some distance for everything to coalesce. Now, to be fair I did hear some imperfections that were mostly in the bass range and most likely due to room modes because they were intermitent and tended to hit when a particular note was played. That being said, it was the closest to "There is no hifi only music" that I heard at the show. I didn't know they played any rock on them...I just heard them with (lively) Jazz and classical. I guess we will have to just agree to disagree here.

I didn't think the Anima fell apart on rock until they simply tried to play it too loud. It was WAY too loud for me when they put on "Whole lotta luv". It is interesting you mention the AGs because, IMO, they were one of the least convincing horns. For around their money I would take the AutoTech horns in a heart beat.

The difference between Ypsilon (and BTW, it is not the best Ypsilon sound I have heard...their own speakers with their electronics were superior IMO) and LV revolved around the sensation of being in the presence of an actual live event rather than saying "Hey what a great rendering of this recording". In the LV room you FELT like you were in a concert and it had that impact. I can see if you are used to thumpin' bumpin' systems why you might prefer the Ypsilon/Wilson room but for realism it wasn't really that close, sorry.

I am not sure what was going on with the Nagra room...it totally caught me offguard with its easy, resolution and refinement.

Now, I listen to my fair amount of rock music, but mostly in my car. When I am home I want music that can't be done well except with a really good sound system. That means well recorded Jazz and Classical (or sometimes not so well recorded if I love the music). That being said, I will throw on some ZZ top Deguelo or Rush Signals or King Crimson Discipline and jam out.

microstrip · May 9, 2016

amirm said:
It is simpler than that. Just same the image to a file. Select them, right click on them and click on rotate. That's it. You don't need any software.

Well, again a subjective difference!

Anyway with a Firefox add-on https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/flip-or-rotate-image/ you just click "rotate the image" - more simple is impossible!

Should we carry measurements with un-trained members?

microstrip · May 9, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
(...) Far and away the best, the Dohmann/Ypsilon/Wilson room. I'm not the most massive Wilson fan, but the new Ypsilon hybrid monoblocks just made the room disappear as the s/stage extended metres in every direction. Dohmann tt a real contender. Standout was the Ypsilon cdp. Simple 16.44 rbcd, not upsampled etc, blew away other digital at the show by some margin.
Worst? The WE vintage horns. After the big build up for many years, I finally heard them, and wish I hadn't.
Big suprise personally? Meeting Sean Casey of Zu Audio fame (my speakers). One of the genuine nice guys in audio. Passionate, driven, and truly humble/down to earth, and we discussed a little personal project he might do for me. THIS i never expected...
More reports to come... (...)

The Ypsilon electronics from Greece is reported as being a great match with Wilson Audio. Several people advised me to try it when I had the Alexia's at home. Unfortunately they are expensive, heavy and are not distributed in my country.

This capability of extending soundstage meters in every direction is a very strong point of Wilson speakers when properly amplified and positioned.

BTW, it is great to read such detailed dissonant reports from our members and their findings - like this we manage to get an more exact idea of the strongest points of the systems.

Derainer · May 10, 2016

Good morning dear friends of analog audio,
here are a few more pictures from the high end show in Munich.

This is my latest, laser controlled tangential tonearm. Fully automatic controlled and moved only via the rotary encoder.
With preselection of several functions. The arm itself is 11,5 inch long and has a gimbal (cardanic) bearing.

This one is already sold at the second day in Munich. Two more tonearms I have in order for the end of this year.
For me it was an absolute succsessful show and I'm very happy.

Derainer · May 10, 2016

Her is the rest of my pictures

You can also see my new computer controlled motor unit for turntables.
The turntable in this pictures is made by the company TONETOOL. We cooperate together very good.
Any questions? please ask me, but be patient with my english.

Bye for now,
Rainer

DaveyF · May 10, 2016

Rainer, that is a fantastic looking piece of kit...and I would bet it sounds great too. Do you have any distributor's in the USA? Also, what price is the TT and your arm? Lastly, I think I see a Dyna Te Kaitora Rua on the arm...why that particular cartridge?

NorthStar · May 10, 2016

That is awesome Rainer. I remember very well when you first shared it with us right here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?3212-650K-Turntable&p=350190&viewfull=1#post350190

Congrats, and very best cheers,

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

morricab said:
Well, as one who comes from many many years with full-range electrostats, ribbons, time coherent conventional speakers and now time coherent two-way horns, I am one of the most sensitive people I know with regards to driver integration and disconnect between drivers in a multi-way system. I didn't even think it was possible to do what LV has done but to my ears they have and stunningly better than anyone else for that matter. Perhaps you were in the front row? They did sound the best sitting in the back two rows of seats. Like all large multi-way speakers it takes some distance for everything to coalesce. Now, to be fair I did hear some imperfections that were mostly in the bass range and most likely due to room modes because they were intermitent and tended to hit when a particular note was played. That being said, it was the closest to "There is no hifi only music" that I heard at the show. I didn't know they played any rock on them...I just heard them with (lively) Jazz and classical. I guess we will have to just agree to disagree here.

I didn't think the Anima fell apart on rock until they simply tried to play it too loud. It was WAY too loud for me when they put on "Whole lotta luv". It is interesting you mention the AGs because, IMO, they were one of the least convincing horns. For around their money I would take the AutoTech horns in a heart beat.

The difference between Ypsilon (and BTW, it is not the best Ypsilon sound I have heard...their own speakers with their electronics were superior IMO) and LV revolved around the sensation of being in the presence of an actual live event rather than saying "Hey what a great rendering of this recording". In the LV room you FELT like you were in a concert and it had that impact. I can see if you are used to thumpin' bumpin' systems why you might prefer the Ypsilon/Wilson room but for realism it wasn't really that close, sorry.

I am not sure what was going on with the Nagra room...it totally caught me offguard with its easy, resolution and refinement.

Now, I listen to my fair amount of rock music, but mostly in my car. When I am home I want music that can't be done well except with a really good sound system. That means well recorded Jazz and Classical (or sometimes not so well recorded if I love the music). That being said, I will throw on some ZZ top Deguelo or Rush Signals or King Crimson Discipline and jam out.

Hey Morricab, you love Rush and King Crimson, at least we're in agreement here LOL. And yr love for Nat amps if I'm not mistaken (I'm running Utopia/SE2SEs, w/poss upgrade to Magnetostat).
Sure, audio is all about the suspension of disbelief, releasing those endorphins. No way would I ever claim the Ypsilon/Wilson room was close the the "real thing", it just activated my pleasure centres. W/the LV and Anima rooms, all I could feel was dispareate drive units, at the front middle and back of room. And tbh, you should be able to pick up bass anywhere in the LV room, wherever one sat. So where was it?
Now, the Cessaro Gamma/B'horns room at Euros 450k had a similar bass shy presentation, but at least the sound was holistic, w/out me picking apart the various drive units.
And just how can the Animas have been overdriven at those volumes, 125W traformatics powering 109dB eff horns w/twin subs?

I really want to consider going down the horns route, truly. But the various horns demos left me w/more reservations than confidence. However i remain of the opinion that AG are getting things more right than wrong, despite the negatives about them relayed by you and many others.
YMMV, IMHO, Yada Yada etc.

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

You really cannot make "bass shy" callas on Munich demos. Some of the rooms (many) have walls 2 inches thick. You can hear loud music from the other rooms. If you listen to speakers you think are bass shy at Munich in a proper set up, you will find plenty of bass. These are just the dangers of making such calls based on show demos, which is why it should just be treated as something for future evaluation if you like the sound, or if you can A/B

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

bonzo75 said:
You really cannot make "bass shy" callas on Munich demos. Some of the rooms (many) have walls 2 inches thick. You can hear loud music from the other rooms. If you listen to speakers you think are bass shy at Munich in a proper set up, you will find plenty of bass. These are just the dangers of making such calls based on show demos, which is why it should just be treated as something for future evaluation if you like the sound, or if you can A/B

Understand fully Ked. But I can make a call on hearing disparity between drive units (as you have done on the Liszt and AG Duo). IMHO, there was seamless continuity in the Cessaro Gamma room (as you would demand for Euros450k, or even 4.5k), Scheherazade was truly of a piece. But things fell apart w/other horns.
Despite loving the Ypsilon/Wilson, Nagra/Kronos and Cessaro rooms, my prize of the show goes to the stupendous B&O Beolab 90's which most here missed, in Halle 1. £55k for spkrs/amps/dacs/dsp, only need to add streamer/tt/adc. Oh, and grounding, Mooks, LOL. Ticked EVERY box, esp considering they were in a truly AWFUL room (square, thin walls, ambient noise, thin walls).

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Understand fully Ked. But I can make a call on hearing disparity between drive units. IMHO, there was seamless continuity in the Cessaro Gamma room (as you would demand for Euros450k, or even 4.5k), Scheherazade was truly of a piece. But things fell apart w/other horns.
Despite loving the Ypsilon/Wilson, Nagra/Kronos and Cessaro rooms, my prize of the show goes to the stupendous B&O Beolab 90's which most here missed in Halle 1. For £55k for spkrs/amps/dacs/dsp, only need to add streamer/tt/adc. Ticked EVERY box, esp considering they were in a truly AWFUL room (square, thin walls, ambient noise, thin walls).

Actually, I could hear things from various drivers. I heard the Beoloab in London didn't like them, didn't hear them at the show.

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

Where did you hear them? How did they fail for you? The demo was super, but I'll bring my skeptical hat to any future trial. I still want to buy horns LOL!
I guess such variance in opinions is what keeps the high end alive - enough guys w/sufficient cash and strong opinions to support a variety of truly expensive gear.

bonzo75 · May 10, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Where did you hear them? How did they fail for you? The demo was super, but I'll bring my skeptical hat to any demo. I still want to buy horns LOL!

Tone. Anyway if you want a non-audiophile set up there are many. Linn Akubarik Exakt is much better. There is a guy in London who makes lovely DIY speakers for 2k (his cost), plus his own 300b amp and dac.

spiritofmusic · May 10, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Tone. Anyway if you want a non-audiophile set up there are many. Linn Akubarik Exakt is much better. There is a guy in London who makes lovely DIY speakers for 2k (his cost), plus his own 300b amp and dac.

Tone? I can quite believe it. Despite finding stuff like Devialet/Phantom impressive to start, tone is the major thing lacking. Would certainly be listening out for that at any extended demo. Tone is the one thing you don't easily analyse in a "snippets/playlist" demo as was provided at the show.

morricab · May 10, 2016

spiritofmusic said:
Hey Morricab, you love Rush and King Crimson, at least we're in agreement here LOL. And yr love for Nat amps if I'm not mistaken (I'm running Utopia/SE2SEs, w/poss upgrade to Magnetostat).
Sure, audio is all about the suspension of disbelief, releasing those endorphins. No way would I ever claim the Ypsilon/Wilson room was close the the "real thing", it just activated my pleasure centres. W/the LV and Anima rooms, all I could feel was dispareate drive units, at the front middle and back of room. And tbh, you should be able to pick up bass anywhere in the LV room, wherever one sat. So where was it?
Now, the Cessaro Gamma/B'horns room at Euros 450k had a similar bass shy presentation, but at least the sound was holistic, w/out me picking apart the various drive units.
And just how can the Animas have been overdriven at those volumes, 125W traformatics powering 109dB eff horns w/twin subs?

I really want to consider going down the horns route, truly. But the various horns demos left me w/more reservations than confidence. However i remain of the opinion that AG are getting things more right than wrong, despite the negatives about them relayed by you and many others.
YMMV, IMHO, Yada Yada etc.

Yes, I think NAT stuff is great but I got rid of my Symbiosis SE because of 2 reasons; 1) It took FOREVER to get to where it sounded like it should. 2 hours + everytime and then it was superb. I simply don't have that kind of time to listen on a regular basis and it was frustrating knowing it wasn't there yet. 2) It was still not as good as the KR amps I had in the past.

Now, the 211 based NAT amps are really good and I never compared directly to KR but they are likely competitive. I have heard the big Transmitters as well and they are also excellent.

I was not thrilled with the Cessaro because mainly it had a horn "honk" coloration on male vocals that speakers like the Tune audio, LV and AutoTech did not have. I still don't get your comments about disparate drivers with the LVs at least (I kind of heard this a bit with the Tune Audio speakers). I also don't get the comment regarding the bass, which I thought was overall in good balance with the rest of the spectrum.

I guess for me the difference with the LV room was that it didn't just ignite my "pleasure centers", it went beyond that to what I know from real live concerts...especially the unamplified kind. You see I lived a top flight violinist for 4 years (my ex-girlfriend) and I heard every single day the power and presence of her playing some old rare violin (for a while it was a Strad...but the others were just as old and rare). I went to her concerts, her practice sessions. I recorded her multiple times etc. I know what that live pressure and sense in the room is like and only the LV created this accurately.

Some interesting stuff at Munich 2016

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