Tonearm Comparison: SME 3012R and SME V-12

Al M.

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I should never complain about audio reviews or show reports again. But you are right, let me put on my random headphones, which happen to best the computer speakers - or do they. Do I need room, or ear, treatments, while I do that? I bet some need ear treatments.

Hehe, in.my case $ 30 headphones from RadioShack did just fine, no treatments ;).
 

ack

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Hehe, in.my case $ 30 headphones from RadioShack did just fine, no treatments ;).

Yes, I bet they do justice to this "sound" of this system. Imagine if we had to compare awful recordings, using awful microphones, over mediocre headphones worth $30, using lossy digital compression. Some audiophile discussion.
 
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Al M.

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Yes, I bet they do justice to this "sound" of this system

It's all relative. Of course it's not like being in the room -- I have heard the same track in person in Peter's system. But the recording is still surprisingly good, and revealing of differences.

I would never say that such a recording does "justice" to a system. Do I have to remind you again that in principle I am a rabid system video hater, usually one of the most outspoken ones on this forum? But then, most system recordings are much worse than this one. And I am sure, on some other material this recording chain would give a much inferior result than on this choral piece.
 
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Tango

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Dear Peter,

It is a very good day for me getting to hear your system. Sharing a video from a person whom I like reading talking to in forum without having a chance to meet him in person is to me a welcome and an extension of his friendship. Home is a private place.

B is the one I prefer. I listened only to around 1:50 on the video A and to around 1:35 on the video B. You can hear the small difference in tone, perceived dynamic weight is more in A, tiny distinguishable differentiating female and male choral is more in B than A, the hollowness of venue (A) vs the more fill up with midrange in vocal (B), the "seethrough-ness" of air is presented in (B). Just keep listening back and forth around 0:50 to 1:35.

I will listen more later and try to explain what I hear. B is more similar to what I hear from my vdh on 3012R.

Thanks for sharing the video and music Peter. I could dive into this type of beautiful tune. Great sounding system too.

Tang
 
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bazelio

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Peter, I'm about half way through both tracks. Thus far, I'd say B sounds more natural. Differences don't seem dramatic, but timbre does seem more realistic in B, with A slightly white washed. E.g. the baritone sounds more believable in B. Though B sounds slightly more damped and less airy, but it sounds like the right tradeoff. I might be tempted to have you lower the VTA on A and make another recording to see how that changes the comparison.

For playback, I went directly from my phone to a portable Centrance DACport HD into PortaPro headphones. Nothing fancy.
 
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bonzo75

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Peter, thanks very much for sharing this. The room is beautiful and the system is very well integrated into a living room setting, exactly as I would desire mine.

Can we also get some violin, piano, cello please?

Was that the grand cru? If so, it is much more balanced than the master signature I have heard.

I thought video A had much more authority, control, while the lack of showed in B, and B also had less energy and was rolled off at the top. For the choral it muddied up more, but I found it more natural in the start with only the woman's voice. There was some ambience in the second video. Btw, I prefer Magico type cone set ups with much more control and authority than I prefer SETs horns set ups as in the latter presentation style is different, so A or B choice in a different type of system would vary
 
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howiebrou

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I prefer B. It sounds more natural, more airy. A sounds more compressed, the mid-range sounds a little too overemphasised, at least on my cheap logitech headphones. Overall, very pleasant and very nice system Peter. Congrats.
 
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Tango

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Peter, I'm about half way through both tracks. Thus far, I'd say B sounds more natural. Differences don't seem dramatic, but timbre does seem more realistic in B, with A slightly white washed. E.g. the baritone sounds more believable in B. Though B sounds slightly more damped and less airy, but it sounds like the right tradeoff. I might be tempted to have you lower the VTA on A and make another recording to see how that changes the comparison.

For playback, I went directly from my phone to a portable Centrance DACport HD into PortaPro headphones. Nothing fancy.
B would be closer to A too if you put another 0.1 gram or so more vtf of B.
 

bonzo75

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Btw I record on iPhone 8+. Need to compare to iPhone 11. Did compare with Samsung 10+. IPhone is more organic, Samsung is more clean :)
 
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tima

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Thanks for sharing these examples of music played in your room. I would much prefer to hear the comparison in your room than via video, but appreciate your making the recordings.

I first listened on my old tablet and later on my computer with small Audio Engine speakers. I heard the same differences on each but they were more exaggerated on the tablet.

Video A exhibits a wee touch more harder/cooler reflective verberation/resonance/ambience/'air' than B - the type you hear from a recording made in a stone church. And, if it was, then the is not unusual for sort of venue. I suppose that might be mistaken for energy. But this (Argo SRG 5497) was made in Kingsway Hall which I do not associate to that, so I don't know where that would come from in video A. B had less, as if taken center stage and further from reflective walls.

I start there as the so-called reverberation, (if the recording were made in a stone church (etc.) ) could account for the slight mid/upper-mid blur that I heard when the male choristers joined the female in A along, with slightly better clarity of the words in B. The lyrics (such as "into the desert I was led" etc.) were actually clearer on the tablet than through the computer speakers.

Alternatively, maybe a difference in resolution could account for the very small muddle I heard from A versus B as separation of voices and words were slightly clearer on B. Hard to say.

Video A may have had ever so slightly more dynamic contrast than B.

I agree that the opening female solo was very very nice on B. If I used the word "natural", I would use it there. If I must choose, my choice is B.

When I say things like 'slightly more' the differences are indeed small, smaller than say the difference between pp and ppp.

I suspect the different accounts you read from posters here is as much due to the different playback each of us has than anything else.
 
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bonzo75

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"I suspect the different accounts you read from posters here is as much due to the different playback each of us has than anything else."

Unlike same people listening to same system and having different preferences, when it comes to videos, there is an additional element of people extrapolating what they hear in a video to what it might sound like in room. This extrapolation adds a layer that can differ between people
 

Tango

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B. It sounds more natural, more airy. A sounds more compressed, the mid-range sounds a little too overemphasised, at least on my cheap logitech headphones.
Your cheap logitech is consistent with how I hear. Cheap one has no budget to add color ;).
 
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Audiophile Bill

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I just listened to both vids on headphones. I prefer video B - sounds more natural to me.

Video A I would describe as having lower noise floor but tonally having a harder signature and more “hifi” sounding if you excuse the expression.

Video B induced a cognitive easing much quicker to me and I listened more to the music. Tonally it had less upper mid distortion (leading to a slightly harder sound).

But all in all I enjoyed Hearing your system and seeing the room. Both sounded good no doubt about that.

Could you send a vid of some small scale strings or piano or full orchestra - would love to hear.
 
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MadFloyd

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I listened in my recording studio over monitors and I prefer B because A has a metallic character to it that I’m sensitive to (and dislike).
 

PeterA

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Thank you for the responses so far everyone. The value of these videos is certainly controversial, but I appreciate and enjoy the posts from those who have taken the time to listen and share their impressions. I will disclose which arm is which a bit later as I want to discourage as much bias as is possible under the circumstances.

I have only made a few of these, and now that the one cartridge is only on one arm, I can only make a video of one arm/cartridge combination. Here is one I made yesterday of solo cello written by Crumb and played by Frans Helmerson. Perhaps some of you can identify if this is the same combination as A or B above. One reader off line from Australia told me that clearly hears differences in the quality of the videos depending on whether they are heard through the WBF post or directly on the YouTube site. I will look into that later today.

Here is the link to the Crumb Sonata for Solo Cello on BIS:

I will add that it is certainly possible that I did not properly set up the cartridge in both arms. Someone like ddk could do a more consistent set up in the two arms. It is also possible that the different armboard mountings have a profound influence on the overall sound. Someday I may get around to mounting the SME V-12 on the outboard armpod and hearing how the sound differs from the direct mount on the SME table.

I will try to make some more videos of string quartet, piano, and perhaps orchestra and post them on my system thread so as to not dilute the topic of this thread.
 
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PeterA

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I posted these videos for fun. Like with Tang, it is an exchange or sharing of music, and it provides some kind of context of one's system for others who can not hear it any other way. People have already told me that they have ordered the two LPs based on hearing these videos. And the bonus is if I end up learning something in the process, or if a comparison generates an interesting discussion. This will hopefully be the case with the two videos comparing the two SME tonearms. I think the differences in that case are fairly representative of what I hear live from my system. The criticism is easy for me to ignore.

I think watching and listening to these videos is like attending a demonstration at an audio show. If the sound is good, it means there is some potential for the system to sound good. If the sound is bad, it does not mean the system is bad, it just means that the show conditions or video recording does not convey a system's potential. These videos and audio shows simply provide a little bit of exposure and data that would not otherwise be available. People can chose to use that information or not depending on the utility for them.
 
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bonzo75

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"I think watching and listening to these videos is like attending a demonstration at an audio show. If the sound is good, it means there is some potential for the system to sound good. If the sound is bad, it does not mean the system is bad"


I treat videos like treat hifi shows. If there is something right, it is worth investigating further. If there is something wrong, can't draw a conclusion except where we already have experience in similar settings

The second para is what I posted in WhatsApp to Bill earlier in the day
 
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PeterA

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"I think watching and listening to these videos is like attending a demonstration at an audio show. If the sound is good, it means there is some potential for the system to sound good. If the sound is bad, it does not mean the system is bad"


I treat videos like treat hifi shows. If there is something right, it is worth investigating further. If there is something wrong, can't draw a conclusion except where we already have experience in similar settings

The second para is what I posted in WhatsApp to Bill earlier in the day

I guess we are channeling each other today Bonzo.
 
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Ovenmitt

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Hi Peter,

Thanks for posting these videos. It took me a while to respond because I didn't have much faith in the idea that I'd be able to hear any real differences through my computer/tablet speakers.... Your system sounds really nice and now I think I am also interested in hearing one of these VdH cartridges in my own system - dammit, there goes my credit card up in smoke!

I really preferred sample B. I agree with others who have said it has a more relaxed presentation. Sample A seems to have a sharper upper midrange edge - somewhere around 700-1000Hz maybe - that (in comparison) was a little less musical to my ears. Funny thing for me was that I stopped listening to sample A after about 2 minutes because I got bored and felt I'd had enough. I listed to all of sample B without really thinking about it....

I've never tried to do something like this and it's actually been fun. Thanks again for taking the time.
 
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PeterA

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B would be closer to A too if you put another 0.1 gram or so more vtf of B.

Thank you Tang. I suppose I could also decrease the VTF of A by 0.1g. I wonder if that would make it sound closer to B and lesson the slight upper midrange emphasis and make it sound a bit more relaxed. Right now, they have the same 1.50g on both arms.
 

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