Why are there so few DACs with Ethernet inputs?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Well, at one level is a philosophical issue. Ethernet mandates a computer, albeit a smaller one than what you use, but nevertheless a computer that is running a ton of code and creating events that occur in audio band (e.g. a timer that ticks to keep time). While anything can be quieted at some expense, physical size and effort, all else being equal you want that outside of the DAC. Digital interfaces like USB, S/PDIF, etc. can be implemented with far simpler processing units.
The other issue is support and reliability. Anything to do with networking brings in boatload of support issues. Yesterday my NAS just decided to show half the songs in one of my albums. I had to reboot it to see the rest. I knew that but others may just point the finger at the DAC. And proceed to call the DAC company demanding that they fix this problem because that is where the problem manifests itself.
The DAC company also needs to build up expertise in supporting computer systems inside their DAC. Yes, they can buy a module to use but still requires work on their part.
So lots of barriers against the convenience of having that connectivity. I suspect over time more and more DAC companies to support networking out of market necessity.
The other issue is support and reliability. Anything to do with networking brings in boatload of support issues. Yesterday my NAS just decided to show half the songs in one of my albums. I had to reboot it to see the rest. I knew that but others may just point the finger at the DAC. And proceed to call the DAC company demanding that they fix this problem because that is where the problem manifests itself.
The DAC company also needs to build up expertise in supporting computer systems inside their DAC. Yes, they can buy a module to use but still requires work on their part.
So lots of barriers against the convenience of having that connectivity. I suspect over time more and more DAC companies to support networking out of market necessity.
Ultimately, is there an unfilled gap in the list of digital interfaces for audio? I don't see it myself - I think we're pretty well catered for. By connecting the right combination of cheap-as-chips products it's possible to stream audio across the world to a remote DAC, or simply from your laptop to your local system.
You could send data from a Windows PC to a USB DAC via a network with an adaptor like this for £19:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/Belkin-Network-USB-Hub-review
You could send data from a Windows PC to a USB DAC via a network with an adaptor like this for £19:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/Belkin-Network-USB-Hub-review
In addition to the points made by Amir, you might ask yourself why anyone would spend $10k on an Ethernet cable targeted at audiophiles which presumably makes a difference in some systems vs. a source that renders such an expensive accessory irrelevant.
Amir
Most of your points are well made. Some exceptions are 1) when you have a solution such as Meridian/Sooloos where the data is delivered to one of Meridian's endpoints. i.e 818vX or 808vX. 2) when the data delivered via ethernet to a quality renderer such as MSB has made available. In these to instances virtually no user actions are required.
The only issue I can see with a great implementation is, it's not 100% idiot proof. You could have guys trying to plug the Ethernet cable into the USB port, fire wire etc. Also if you have a router in the mix, you must make sure it's turned on, and connected to the server. It can be confusing to have to remember so many steps. But the great thing is there's lots of choice out there. USB does make things a bit more idiot proof. So for some the superior sound quality and versatility offered by Ethernet renderer technology, may not be worth it.
IMHO, an "Ethernet input" means a built-in streamer. And a streamer is so much more than a mere "input". It's not like adding an SPDIF or even a USB port. A streamer is a much more complex beast, with *gasp* software built-in.
For MSB's own "Ethernet input" (they call Renderer), it took a lot more time and effort for the software side than the hardware.
Software is, after all, a new frontier for audio companies, whose engineers have been traditionally very conservative.
Hervé's approach for the brilliant darTZeel LHC-208 was to have a specialized software company develop its streaming software. This company (they also do the software/firmware for the other darTZeels) specialize in "embedded software", code that run on dedicated, purpose-built hardware.
Of course, with time comes commoditization. There are now "USB boards" (Amanero, etc) that DAC developers could buy and use in their projects. Soon enough there'll be "streamer boards", so every DAC will come with a built-in streamer, with little incremental cost.
In the end, the companies that invest, that do the legwork, and not merely slap a third-party streamer "thing" inside a DAC, will always have the best products, either in terms of sound quality and/or reliability. That's the case right now. Linn has invested millions in software for its products, and it clearly shows, as their stuff just works.
For MSB's own "Ethernet input" (they call Renderer), it took a lot more time and effort for the software side than the hardware.
Software is, after all, a new frontier for audio companies, whose engineers have been traditionally very conservative.
Hervé's approach for the brilliant darTZeel LHC-208 was to have a specialized software company develop its streaming software. This company (they also do the software/firmware for the other darTZeels) specialize in "embedded software", code that run on dedicated, purpose-built hardware.
Of course, with time comes commoditization. There are now "USB boards" (Amanero, etc) that DAC developers could buy and use in their projects. Soon enough there'll be "streamer boards", so every DAC will come with a built-in streamer, with little incremental cost.
In the end, the companies that invest, that do the legwork, and not merely slap a third-party streamer "thing" inside a DAC, will always have the best products, either in terms of sound quality and/or reliability. That's the case right now. Linn has invested millions in software for its products, and it clearly shows, as their stuff just works.
As others pointed out, the networked DAC is simply a tiny computer with a sound card.
All streamers are networked computers by design.
They have become popular because there is a standard (UPnP/DLNA) allowing products from different manufacturers to communicate with each other (UPnP=Universal Plug and Play, indeed a pun on Microsoft’s PnP).
Today DLNA works reasonably reliable.
There are DACs with an Ethernet input working the way like SPDIF does, using a direct low latency protocol like AVB, Cobranet, Dante, Ethersound, Ravenna, etc.
Obvious there is no standard.
Likewise you can’ plug them in in your PC without installing some software.
Maybe AES67 will standardize the lot a bit.
I do think this to be an interesting solution because Ethernet
- No severe limitation in length like USB
- Galvanic isolated by design
Products using these protocols are targeting the prosumer market.
The only consumer version I know is: http://nadac.merging.com/
All streamers are networked computers by design.
They have become popular because there is a standard (UPnP/DLNA) allowing products from different manufacturers to communicate with each other (UPnP=Universal Plug and Play, indeed a pun on Microsoft’s PnP).
Today DLNA works reasonably reliable.
There are DACs with an Ethernet input working the way like SPDIF does, using a direct low latency protocol like AVB, Cobranet, Dante, Ethersound, Ravenna, etc.
Obvious there is no standard.
Likewise you can’ plug them in in your PC without installing some software.
Maybe AES67 will standardize the lot a bit.
I do think this to be an interesting solution because Ethernet
- No severe limitation in length like USB
- Galvanic isolated by design
Products using these protocols are targeting the prosumer market.
The only consumer version I know is: http://nadac.merging.com/
These boards exist for years like http://www.streamunlimited.com/
A lot of streamers are powered by their platform.
As most audio companies are small and don't have much (if any) computer expertise they better buy a of the shelve product.
There are many pro DACs and ADCs which use AES67. Off the top of my head:
Motu
Merging
Grace
Genelec
I bet there will be more after NAMM.
I like the way Motu offers it. They offer a fully configured/compatible router for a nominal fee. That's the right way to do it, IMO.
Once again, the pro guys prove there's no need for stupid prices to get the most advanced feature set.
Motu
Merging
Grace
Genelec
I bet there will be more after NAMM.
I like the way Motu offers it. They offer a fully configured/compatible router for a nominal fee. That's the right way to do it, IMO.
Once again, the pro guys prove there's no need for stupid prices to get the most advanced feature set.
there are other DAC with Ethernet module ; for example :
Weiss models (new)
MSB Technolology models
Mola Mola DAC and DAC board
Couldn't find any info on the Ethernet connection of the Mola but Weiss and MSB offers UPnP modules, not a low latency direct connection AES67 style.
Basically a computer turning your DAC into a UPnP renderer.
Basically a computer turning your DAC into a UPnP renderer.
Similar threads
Members online
- KidTurbo
- bonzo75
- Kjetil
- rpw
- tonytsui
- b345t
- digit_linn
- flkin
- Bonesy Jonesy
- Shlomo
- ramesh
- Król_Artur
- kasin
- mtemur
- Animata
- kostas6a3
- morricab
- nicoludio
- hopkins
- Ferris010
- Rexp
- AudioLibertarian
- rrobz
- Phantom-Audio
- shawnf
- LR319
- Michael S.
- Strad
- jadis
- Azjya
- nonesup
- hesavary
- Geoffkait
- SlapEcho
- Young Skywalker
- alank46
- TST
- VinylSavor
- Armsan
- tipunch
- nirodha
- XV-1
- Ron Resnick
- thekong
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |