What is the point of tube preamps/amps that don't sound like tubes?

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

I am shopping for a tube preamp. Some interesting thoughts popped into my noggin.

What is the point of purchasing and running tube preamps, or integrated/power amps that don't sound tubey?

If there is no signature tube sound why not just go solid state and get the benefit of no heat and zero maintenance?

microstrip · Oct 2, 2015

Andre Marc said:
I am shopping for a tube preamp. Some interesting thoughts popped into my noggin.

What is the point of purchasing and running tube preamps, or integrated/power amps that don't sound tubey?

If there is no signature tube sound why not just go solid state and get the benefit of no heat and zero maintenance?

The best property of tube preamplifiers is avoiding the sound signature of solid state preamplifiers ...

I have the feeling that tube preampfliers represent better value for money in terms of sound quality - e.g. you can get two ARC REF5Se for the price of a DartZeel NH18. I have also found that tube preamplifiers are less critical of matching - usually solid state preamplifers ask to be connected to amplifiers of the same brand. Just MHO.

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

microstrip said:
The best property of tube preamplifiers is avoiding the sound signature of solid state preamplifiers ...

I have the feeling that tube preampfliers represent better value for money in terms of sound quality - e.g. you can get two ARC REF5Se for the price of a DartZeel NH18. I have also found that tube preamplifiers are less critical of matching - usually solid state preamplifers ask to be connected to amplifiers of the same brand. Just MHO.

Yes, but what about tube preamps that are hard to pick as "tube" preamps. Speaking of ARC, I think ARC has been moving towards a dead neutral, solid state type sound for the past decade.

And heck DartZeel and brands like that are fantasy priced. There are also some tube preamps from VAC, Audio Note, Lamm, Conrad Johnson, etc that go into tens of thousands.

microstrip · Oct 2, 2015

Andre Marc said:
Yes, but what about tube preamps that are hard to pick as "tube" preamps. Speaking of ARC, I think ARC has been moving towards a dead neutral, solid state type sound for the past decade.

And heck DartZeel and brands like that are fantasy priced. There are also some tube preamps from VAC, Audio Note, Lamm, Conrad Johnson, etc that go into tens of thousands.

In general, most quality tube preamplfiers are less colored than 10 years ago. But the dead neutral of a cj GAT is different from the dead neutral of the ARC REF40 and both are different from a dead neutral VTL 7.5 mk3. My apologies, IMHO you have to listen to a well matched tube preamplifier to understand what is really the main characteristic of a good tube design - no words will tell you. People usually refer to colorations, but no, IMHO it is much more than beyond that! A good friend refers to it as the "beauty" in the music!

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

microstrip said:
In general, most quality tube preamplfiers are less colored than 10 years ago. But the dead neutral of a cj GAT is different from the dead neutral of the ARC REF40 and both are different from a dead neutral VTL 7.5 mk3. My apologies, IMHO you have to listen to a well matched tube preamplifier to understand what is really the main characteristic of a good tube design - no words will tell you. People usually refer to colorations, but no, IMHO it is much more than beyond that! A good friend refers to it as the "beauty" in the music!

I get what you say..but the word "coloration" does not enter into my mind. To me it is a cliche among audiophiles pertaining to tubes.

To me, the very best things tubes do is make things harmonically right. Period. You just know it when you hear it.

DaveyF · Oct 2, 2015

Purite Audio said:
There are much cheaper ways of adding distortion than an expensive tube pre.
Keith.

Like an inexpensive ss preamp for example.

It is pretty rare to hear a really good ss preamp, OTOH, there are numerous really good tube preamps.

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

DaveyF said:
Like an inexpensive ss preamp for example.

It is pretty rare to hear a really good ss preamp, OTOH, there are numerous really good tube preamps.

Spot on!

marty · Oct 2, 2015

Andre,
With all your reviewing experience, surely you've reviewed some good tube pre-amps, no? Why tubes? Countless things have been written as to why. IMHO, tubes have a certain sound. Call it more 2nd order harmonic distortion, call it "musical", call it "colored", call it whatever you want. All I know is that whatever the hell is it, I want some of that sound in my system. I'm currently using a VTL 7.5III, which I think is a masterpiece, but to be honest, there are a lot of wonderful units out there for far less money. Russ is currently using a BAT (not sure of the model but its in the sub 3K range used) but it's darn good and he's quite happy with it (same 6H30 "supertubes" as ARC uses).
Marty

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

marty said:
Andre,
With all your reviewing experience, surely you've reviewed some good tube pre-amps, no? Why tubes? Countless things have been written as to why. IMHO, tubes have a certain sound. Call it more 2nd order harmonic distortion, call it "musical", call it "colored", call it whatever you want. All I know is that whatever the hell is it, I want some of that sound in my system. I'm currently using a VTL 7.5III, which I think is a masterpiece, but to be honest, there are a lot of wonderful units out there for far less money. Russ is currently using a BAT (not sure of the model but its in the sub 3K range used) but it's darn good and he's quite happy with it (same 6H30 "supertubes" as ARC uses).
Marty

Hey Marty:

Actually I have had many, many units from CJ, Manley (the 300B!) Lamm, ARC, Rogue, and more in my system. I am a big believer in tube preamps. AND passives btw.

My the point of my post is why would you want tube electronics that sound no different than solid state? In other words..like you, I don't know exactly
how to label it.."coloration", "harmonic distortion"...whatever..i want some!

BlueFox · Oct 2, 2015

DaveyF said:
It is pretty rare to hear a really good ss preamp, OTOH, there are numerous really good tube preamps.

Okay. I'll bite the bait. How does one define "really good" in terms of preamps?

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

BlueFox said:
Okay. I'll bite the bait. How does one define "really good" in terms of preamps?

For me, specific to tube preamps, low noise, reliability, and excellent channel balance are paramount..aside from, again,
having that magic.

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

tomelex said:
From the horses mouth:

Conrad-Johnson is pleased to announce the availability of the new conrad-johnson CA150 control amplifier – a power amplifier with level control and source selectors. A control amplifier is identical in function to an integrated amplifier, but without the additional distortions that would be inherent in a superfluous line-stage. Like an integrated amplifier, a control amplifier also eliminates the colorations of preamplifier to amplifier interconnect cables. The CA150 combines the circuitry of our popular MF2275 power amplifier with source selector circuits and a Burr-Brown precision level control.

Very interesting. Basically a ss integrated with a passive input stage.

DaveyF · Oct 2, 2015

BlueFox said:
Okay. I'll bite the bait. How does one define "really good" in terms of preamps?

That's easy...one that 'floats your boat'.
If that same preamp happens to also sound like the sound of real 'live' instruments in a 'live' setting, then so much the better. IMHO...

Steve Williams · Oct 2, 2015

Purite Audio said:
There are much cheaper ways of adding distortion than an expensive tube pre.
Keith.

Hi Keith

Can you possibly see how a post such as this can quickly derail a thread? The member asks a question about a tube preamp choice only to have you quickly introduce cost and distortion

Please don't do it again.

BlueFox · Oct 2, 2015

Andre Marc said:
For me, specific to tube preamps, low noise, reliability, and excellent channel balance are paramount..aside from, again,
having that magic.

DaveyF said:
That's easy...one that 'floats your boat'.
If that same preamp happens to also sound like the sound of real 'live' instruments in a 'live' setting, then so much the better. IMHO...

On another forum I have indicated my interest in demoing a new model tube pre. If it happens I will certainly judge it on how it sounds in my system. Whether I will buy one if it is better is another question. It would have to really be a step up before doing that, because I am so happy with my current setup. At this point, a nuance here and there is just not worth the effort to me.

Gregadd · Oct 2, 2015

Whether distortion is good or bad you will eventually tire of it. You might not want the rich sound of an El 34 or the loose bass. VTL and Atma-Sphere for example, give you the advantages of tubes without the drawbacks.

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

BlueFox said:
On another forum I have indicated my interest in demoing a new model tube pre. If it happens I will certainly judge it on how it sounds in my system. Whether I will buy one if it is better is another question. It would have to really be a step up before doing that, because I am so happy with my current setup. At this point, a nuance here and there is just not worth the effort to me.

Which model is it?

BTW, there are very few systems on paper that really catch my attention and yours is one of them. Would love to hear it! I would not
change a thing!

Andre Marc · Oct 2, 2015

Gregadd said:
Whether distortion is good or bad you will eventually tire of it. You might not want the rich sound of an El 34 or the loose bass. VTL and Atma-Sphere for example, give you the advantages of tubes without the drawbacks.

So what "advantages" of tubes do the VTL and Atma-Sphere units give you?

BlueFox · Oct 2, 2015

Andre Marc said:
Which model is it?

BTW, there are very few systems on paper that really catch my attention and yours is one of them. Would love to hear it! I would not change a thing!

Backert Labs. It is a new model. For whatever reason, they submitted a post for a contest. Name the new pre, and win one. From there the talk of a demo began. Whether it happens or not is still undecided.

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/169394/3k-preamp-giveaway/p1

Thank you. I like it.

DaveyF · Oct 2, 2015

Andre Marc said:
So what "advantages" of tubes do the VTL and Atma-Sphere units give you?

Not sure this applies to only VTL and Atma-Sphere, because I think it does apply to tubes in general. IME, tube amps/preamps are able to portray the sound of harmonics ( like you said) and the sustain of instruments better than ss. I also think that the dimensionality of the stage is re-created with greater precision and more apparent depth than ss. I believe when we listen to a real instrument in a live setting, our brains are accustomed to hearing the way the instrument 'connects' to the space that it is playing in. For example, we can all fairly easily recognize a piano when we hear it playing 'live'. We pretty much know when we hear a piano reproduced at home that something is not quite there...question is what is that something??? To many of us, the something is hard to pin down, but we all know it when we hear it. i believe that tube gear recreates that illusion slightly better than ss gear. I also think the reason for this is that tube gear is generally..."warmer" than ss gear, and IMHO 'warmth' is a definite part of what the human brain expects to hear. I would suggest that we do indeed hear the warmth of instruments ( the better ones that is) when we listen live.

What is the point of tube preamps/amps that don't sound like tubes?

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