Best Choice JL Sub, Gotham, F212, or F113

BFlowers

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Apr 23, 2010
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I wouldn't get too caught up with the word speed. I want the subs to disappear, as mine do now. I also want them to provide enough volume to fill the larger room they will be heading to. I'm not in a huge rush, so I imagine I can wait for the v2 to come out. Steve, after this project, the last thing I want to do is spend more money.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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The new JL Fathom series (v2) incorporates the automatic multi-point EQ and a more powerful amplifier over the outgoing v1. Otherwise unchanged. The EQ is not manually configurable, but assuming the auto routine does a good job then this should be ok. JL subs are the best I have found for music reproduction.

THANKS FOR THE LINK. I DO KNOW THE jl distributor but know the Velodyne guys well here and have enjoyed my DD18 and may do a deal to trade in for DD18+. Understand the DD10+ is nearly the equal of the old DD18. Any experience with these? Thanks.
 

dallasjustice

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rblnr

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As far as the JL Audio subs are concerned, a pair of F113's will probably be fine for music. The F212's somewhat better and the G213's will have the most reserve.

If I were to get new subs, I would STRONGLY consider and probably get the Paradigm Sub1 or the bigger Sub2 for the best low end. The Sub2 is somewhat less costly than the G213 and I'm sure at least as good. (I don't know current pricing, but the Gotham has had a significant recent price increase. Either way, I'd rather have two F113's over one G213.)

I happened to have replaced 2 f113s with 2 Sub1s and am very happy. Multiple smaller drivers may give you some of the speed you seek, but that might partly depend on the crossover point. You can crossover to the sub1s higher than the f113s. A note for disclosure -- I sell both and like both.
 
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Nyal Mellor

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Aren't your speakers ported? They will shift phase below the tuning frequency. Have you ever tried crossing your speakers over above the port's tuning frequency to avoid phase cancellation with subs?
The tuning frequency is 20hz.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...-loudspeaker-measurements#ys1bpFjKh5w7eICc.97

But, wouldn't crossing over the speakers involve putting something in the "hallowed" signal path, which by all accounts is many audiophiles idea of heresy? :p
 

dallasjustice

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But, wouldn't crossing over the speakers involve putting something in the "hallowed" signal path, which by all accounts is many audiophiles idea of heresy? :p

Very funny! I just wanted to point out one of the major issues with running a sub in parallel with full range speaker. Ported speakers will have a sharp phase reversal below the port's tuning frequency. This would wreak havoc with integrating a sub around the tuning frequency. The only way around the phase cancellation problem would be to use a proper crossover, just like any other driver pairs would have inside a speaker.

Ask yourself this question: Would you buy a speaker which uses no crossover? I think most of us wouldn't. I don't undersntand why subs are different.
 
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RBFC

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JL Audio's main tech guy actually recommends plugging the ports on the main speakers and crossing over to subs. This simplifies the phase shift and group delay issues by removing the ports as low frequency production "devices".

Lee
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
JL Audio's main tech guy actually recommends plugging the ports on the main speakers and crossing over to subs. This simplifies the phase shift and group delay issues by removing the ports as low frequency production "devices".

Lee

I just can't bring myself to do that to my speakers Lee.
 

dallasjustice

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No nor do u want to notwithstanding Michaels comments about port design

In your case it probably doesn't matter since below the tuning frequency there's almost no music anyway. But many speakers have ports with tuning frequencies much higher. For those speakers, I think it would be mostly counterproductive to try integrating a subwoofer without a proper crossover on the main R/L speakers. IOW, one could buy the biggest, baddest, fastest sub with the coolest DSP and the phase shift below the port's tuning frequency will effectively cancel out the sub's output in that frequncy range.

Of course, other things often produce nasty phase shifts, including the room. The idea is to find a way to get the smoothest sub phase and main R/L phase at the crossover. Some folks will say,"that's fine but I don't use a crossover, so none of this applies to MY system." I say that the crossover is still there in those systems too. The main R/L still "crossover" with the sub over a range. The only difference is that the width of the crossover is very wide. This is the least desirable type of crossover because there will be many phase shifts with both driver pairs for various reasons. Those phase shifts WILL produce an uneven frequency response at any point where the two drivers are "crossed over."

The best case scenario is a crossover which doesn't exhibit any phase shifts and is phase coherent at the crossover. If this is achieved and the time domain is reasonable, the bass will be most desirable and will sound most natural.
 

Rodney Gold

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Jan 29, 2014
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I would use a single massive sub and 4 smaller subs
The 4 smaller subs you use as a swarm.. ie to destructively drive nodes etc due to their random placement. They dont have to go down that low

I run my G1's in parallel with a SVBS sb13 ultra and 4 x Yamaha cheapys and it works amazingly. I dont limit the mains at all , they go to 16hz and do the real ultra low end

You can go anywhere in the room and the bass is even throughout.. has huge effects on soundtage etc..sounds amazing
I like it loud and I like bass..


I have heard the JL audio stuff , very good , very pricey .. hence I went with SVS
My speakers and the 4swarm subs are ported , the SVS not.. makes no real difference

I would buy the $2500 Swarm system from audiokenesis
And then buy the best mainstream sub you can afford.

http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html
 

BFlowers

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Apr 23, 2010
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Great advice. I'm leaning toward doing the F113s. In large measure because I am familiar with them and have a dealer I am comfortable with. Based on room configuration and aesthetics, I am thinking about using 3 instead of two. Any thoughts on the odd number?
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Great advice. I'm leaning toward doing the F113s. In large measure because I am familiar with them and have a dealer I am comfortable with. Based on room configuration and aesthetics, I am thinking about using 3 instead of two. Any thoughts on the odd number?

the more the better.

I believe 4 F113's will outperform a pair of G213's
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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I'm certain of that. Better dispersion, wider placement, more power.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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In your case it probably doesn't matter since below the tuning frequency there's almost no music anyway. But many speakers have ports with tuning frequencies much higher. For those speakers, I think it would be mostly counterproductive to try integrating a subwoofer without a proper crossover on the main R/L speakers. IOW, one could buy the biggest, baddest, fastest sub with the coolest DSP and the phase shift below the port's tuning frequency will effectively cancel out the sub's output in that frequncy range.

Of course, other things often produce nasty phase shifts, including the room. The idea is to find a way to get the smoothest sub phase and main R/L phase at the crossover. Some folks will say,"that's fine but I don't use a crossover, so none of this applies to MY system." I say that the crossover is still there in those systems too. The main R/L still "crossover" with the sub over a range. The only difference is that the width of the crossover is very wide. This is the least desirable type of crossover because there will be many phase shifts with both driver pairs for various reasons. Those phase shifts WILL produce an uneven frequency response at any point where the two drivers are "crossed over."

The best case scenario is a crossover which doesn't exhibit any phase shifts and is phase coherent at the crossover. If this is achieved and the time domain is reasonable, the bass will be most desirable and will sound most natural.

I like your way of describing it: if you run speakers full range with subs, then you do have a crossover, its just a bad, wide overlap, phase incoherent mess :)
 
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Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Great advice. I'm leaning toward doing the F113s. In large measure because I am familiar with them and have a dealer I am comfortable with. Based on room configuration and aesthetics, I am thinking about using 3 instead of two. Any thoughts on the odd number?

There's two schools of thoughts on this. One is that you should place them in multiples of two, so the way the room modes are driven is balanced. Only really applies to rectangular rooms. The other is that it doesn't matter, and you can place them anywhere using a process of trial and error to integrate each sub at a time (Geddes method). The Geddes method is interesting, as he recommends not using a crossover either for the mains, and it is the phase shift differences amongst multiple sound sources that leads to the flattest bass. Personally I prefer the use of multiples of two, placed symmetrically and actively crossed over in rectangular rooms.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I like your way of describing it: if you run speakers full range with subs, then you do have a crossover, its just a bad, wide overlap, phase incoherent mess :)

Right

Nyal by your own admission you don't like Wilson speakers.

Trust me when I tell you it isn't a phase coherent mess :)

Give me a call when you're in the area as I might want to prove you wrong. BTW, I'd be careful as an acoustician that you admit this on open forum as it will no doubt affect your clientele ;)
 

GaryProtein

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When an orchestra is playing on stage, isn't the resultant sound of several cellos, tubas and string basses (and everything else) a "phase coherent mess"?

The sound waves of an orchestra are not like the photons from a laser all the same wavelength and exactly in phase, but they are nevertheless additive in the totality of what we hear.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Right

Nyal by your own admission you don't like Wilson speakers.

Trust me when I tell you it isn't a phase coherent mess :)

Give me a call when you're in the area as I might want to prove you wrong. BTW, I'd be careful as an acoustician that you admit this on open forum as it will no doubt affect your clientele ;)

You should try them using an active crossover like the JL Audio CR1 and a higher crossover point, you might be surprised. Or you could be close minded like most other audiophiles and stick to the old ways of doing things so as not to put anything in the **sacred** signal path.

With respect to Wilson, I just think for the money there are far better speakers out there. If a client is using Wilson, then that is their own choice, my role is simply to help them improve their room acoustics and perhaps if they are open to it educate them about the off axis response of the Wilson as compared to other speaker designs. There are a bunch of other speaker designs out there that I think are not great either, such as B&W, and then others that know what they are doing but make very questionable (in my opinion) voicing decisions such as Raidho.

I'm sure your setup sounds great, as I have run subs under speakers without using a crossover, and as long as you are bringing the subs in where the mains roll off then it can sound very good. It can also be challenging to integrate subs using this approach, and doesn't give you many of the benefits of using a subwoofer system, such as reduced distortion from the main speakers, room mode cancellation resulting in smoother frequency response and reduced modal ringing, speaker boundary interference (null) fill.

The real point of using subs is to get a nice smooth response under 100Hz. If you can get that by other means then no need to really use subs, perhaps beyond just extending the low frequencies that the system can produce. However most people have sub-100Hz responses that are all over the place, and then think they have accurate bass. Most have no reference for what accurate bass sounds like. Once you do it is very easy to hear even the slightest room mode coloration. I'd say 90% of rooms I have visited have obnoxious bass issues.

Subs are great because most room treatment becomes ineffective around 70 or 80Hz, and in the range below 100Hz you have the worst room mode issues, with widely spaced room modes and the major SBIR nulls. If you can solve that passively then that is great, but for most situations a properly setup sub system with a little EQ and rolled off main speakers using an active crossover is going to work wonders.

I say this with true belief: any audiophile who is seeking reference class sound should at least once hear what a properly designed subwoofer system can do. I don't think anyone would go back after that. Mostly it is peoples attitudes and deep set beliefs that stop them trying out new things. To be honest most of those beliefs are audiophile BS. Our knowledge as a community of how to use subs in the low bass has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years, although unfortunately some manufacturers are still stuck in the old school, and many audiophiles have old school beliefs.
 
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