$100K Tables - TechDAS AF1 vs. Walker Proscenium? Which sounds more like real music?

I may be wrong, but I though I read an analog corner from Fremer of the Walker years ago when it was $14,995

I would think that both can extract the best from the media, but with different flavourings.

you've got a few other tables that are north of $100k....

caesar said:

So, what do these tables do that a $30K table cannot do?

Click to expand...

The better question is if it's worth the $70,000 difference in price.

Fremer got a great deal on his Continuum. Valin has his Walker on extra long term loan. Those are their respective references, though Fremer does like the VPI Direct Drive very much and did review the TechDas. I've heard the TechDas and Walker sound very good in unfamiliar systems and they are certainly good turntables.

I know a guy who directly compared his Walker to a Technics SP10 MK3 and decided to keep the latter. The Wave Kinetics DD has also been in this system.

I don't know which of the two (TechDas or Walker) is better. But they do have a few similarities which are worth noting: They both have air suspension and they are both belt drives with outboard motors. They are also both extremely heavy. I think the main things they do better than much less expensive tables is in the area of isolation and energy control/drainage. I can't comment about speed accuracy and stability.

There are lots of good turntables, and a few exceptional ones. They do not have to cost $100K to make one lose himself in the music and forget audiophile vocabulary. Arms, cartridges and phono stages are also critical to the overall quality of an analog front end.

I will put up the AF1 against any turntable. I doubt there is one that has a quieter noise floor...CD like as Nishakawa-san likes to say. I have never heard the wave or walker or continuum. Fremer's original review on the AF1 was before the final air chamber suspension was complete so he did not have one performing at it's best.

@ Christian - Mikey apparently liked it a lot. Didn't he say that if he didn't already have a Caliburn he would have bought one? He also said at one show someting along the lines that a show that has an AF1 can't be all bad. LOL.

@ Peter - you nailed it.

For me, the TechDAS hit all my buttons. My philosophy is that a turntable's only job is to give my cart's suspension a perfect road to drive on and do so at the right speed. Sonically, I've always admired the punch and drive of idlers and DDs. It's got that. I've always admired the delicacy found in belt drives. It's got that too. I'm also a bit of a lazy bones*. When I bought my first "serious" table. I hated having to switch pulley positions and eventually got p'd off and bought the optional external controller. No need for that here. Biggest deal for me is isolation. Lack thereof is the biggest killer of articulation. I never listen to the same piece of music the same way twice. I don't think anybody does. Every listen is a chance to listen to different musical lines. Loss of articulation makes this difficult and for me, if I have to work hard to do that, it pulls me out of that delicate zone where suspension of disbelief lives. Lastly, give me my LPs flat as possible. A lot of people obsess about speed variations, I'm one of them. It's just another thing that can pull me out of the zone. The AF1's optical microprocessor controlled system does this well enough indeed but the gravy on this steak is the vacuum hold down. Even with a very speed correct table you will get wow if the LP is warped. It was true when I used to use a periphery ring and it's true now that I just press a button. The ring to vhd is analogous to the change from pulley switching to external speed controller. Less muss no fuss.

Now there is a fuss. The AF1 is not devoid of one. The air bladders need to be topped off every couple of months. This is done by pumping air into the three of them. With this process is the recalibration of the belt tension. I get this done in about 10 minutes but if you think about it that's an hour a year. No big deal but Nishikawa-san felt that this particular suspension had better performance than the original one. I'll take his word for it.

As for Walkers, I've only ever heard one once and that was a long time ago. All I can remember was that I enjoyed that system a whole lot. I don't recall anything at all that bothered me as a whole so obviously there's nothing negative I could attribute to any piece of the chain. Such is life in an unfamiliar room.

*someday I'll explain that in more detail.

JackD201 said:

The air bladders need to be topped off every couple of months. This is done by pumping air into the three of them. With this process is the recalibration of the belt tension. I get this done in about 10 minutes but if you think about it that's an hour a year..

Click to expand...

Jack..the latest version uses air chambers (tables delivered summer 2013...I don't think they are bladders. My table didn't lose any air on the feet for close to a year. Just had to do it recently.

PeterA said:

Fremer got a great deal on his Continuum. Valin has his Walker on extra long term loan. Those are their respective references, though Fremer does like the VPI Direct Drive very much and did review the TechDas. I've heard the TechDas and Walker sound very good in unfamiliar systems and they are certainly good turntables.

I know a guy who directly compared his Walker to a Technics SP10 MK3 and decided to keep the latter. The Wave Kinetics DD has also been in this system.

I don't know which of the two (TechDas or Walker) is better. But they do have a few similarities which are worth noting: They both have air suspension and they are both belt drives with outboard motors. They are also both extremely heavy. I think the main things they do better than much less expensive tables is in the area of isolation and energy control/drainage. I can't comment about speed accuracy and stability.

There are lots of good turntables, and a few exceptional ones. They do not have to cost $100K to make one lose himself in the music and forget audiophile vocabulary. Arms, cartridges and phono stages are also critical to the overall quality of an analog front end.

Click to expand...

...extra, extra long term

Chambers are in the plinth the bladders in the feet. Same thing said differently. I do mine religiously as Nishikawa-san told me personally to do (every two months). I've never waited for it to sag as this might introduce tension on the non-elastic belt and thus on the motor assembly which is locked down.

JackD201 said:

Chambers are in the plinth the bladders in the feet. Same thing said differently. I do mine religiously as Nishikawa-san told me personally to do (every two months). I've never waited for it to sag as this might introduce tension on the non-elastic belt and thus on the motor assembly which is locked down.

Click to expand...

I pump my feet up until the scribed line on the foot is visible. About a month ago I noticed the turntable would not show lock but would flash 33.33 rpm. I though something was wrong with the table. It turned out that my feet has deflated quite a bit causing it not to be level. I topped the air off to get the lines to show again on the feet and everything locked again. It was described in the manual. Like I said with my table, the lines did not disappear(meaning deflated) for over 9 months on my table.

From the tech das site

The Air Force ONE sits on three height-adjustable feet with a full-air suspension system. Air is filled in large air chambers, allowing the user to adjust the resonant frequency of the suspension system to minimize unwanted vibration.

Click to expand...

Yup. The blinking "Lock" is a sign that tension has changed. I've come across this servicing Jim's table a few months after delivery. Right as rain again after.

As per the suspension, the original (variant there of) is what is now in the Two. What I think you are referring to the bladder type. I know it's just a matter of semantics.

JackD201 said:

Yup. The blinking "Lock" is a sign that tension has changed. I've come across this servicing Jim's table a few months after delivery. Right as rain again after.

As per the suspension, the original (variant there of) is what is now in the Two. What I think you are referring to the bladder type. I know it's just a matter of semantics.

Click to expand...

Okay. I do find it strange you need to top it off with air every two months. Like I said...the lines didn't disappear on my table...meaning deflated for close to 9 mos.

Well in answer to the question--- my vote is for the TechDAS AF over the Walker--but with a proviso being the Arm on the TechDAS can alter/improve the sonics considerably. As I have made clear before I feel the Arm currently promoted with the

TT's is the limiting factor in the AF's ability to involve--yes fine Arm I agree--but I have auditioned the TT with other arms --and the sound was superior.

The Walker seemed closed in to me--I'd liked more projection nevertheless it is fine crafted product and worthy of consideration in the quest.

Interestingly I've just heard shootout between the AF2 and a 25 year Old Micro Seiki setup on it's old wooden Air plinth

The Old fellow was better--Progress?--go figure

BruceD

With all due respect, how many people have these tables? And for those that own one, what's the possibility that they have heard the other contenders in a "similar" system?

Furthermore, the owner's "pool" is extremely small, which would imply that the probability of determining any consensus is literally impossible.

And as Bruce points out, the myriad of variables would further suggest the extreme difficulty in making any legitimate comparisons.

And from a pragmatic perspective, how many folks who spent this amount of money and own such items are going to say their table is not the best.

...

,

thedudeabides said:

With all due respect, how many people have these tables? And for those that own one, what's the possibility that they have heard the other contenders in a "similar" system?

Furthermore, the owner's "pool" is extremely small, which would imply that the probability of determining any consensus is literally impossible.

And as Bruce points out, the myriad of variables would further suggest the extreme difficulty in making any legitimate comparisons.

And from a pragmatic perspective, how many folks who spent this amount of money and own such items are going to say their table is not the best.

Click to expand...

Take a chill pill. If you want the best technologically superior TT in every way...superior isolation, vacuum and air bearing implementation with voicing flexibility via platter composition choices, the AF1 is it. the Walker is an old and tired design (still in the SOTA class) with various upgrades to it ps, vacuum, ect.

...

rockitman said:

Okay. I do find it strange you need to top it off with air every two months. Like I said...the lines didn't disappear on my table...meaning deflated for close to 9 mos.

Click to expand...

I check religiously every two months Actually I do the old calendar thing with the knuckles. I check every month that doesn't have 31 days