Audio Research Ref system

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
G'day gentlemen & any ladies...

Experienced something interesting on Saturday afternoon. There is this store that has been in Melbourne for quite a while that I have never visited. Walked past the showroom and saw something worth listening to; New ARC Ref system & SF Strads.
I know I've had bad experience with ARC in the past but thought for what it's worth perhaps I'll give this one a listen at least.

Initially the chap had Australian made speakers called Ambience (ribbon design with built-in sub), hooked up to the ARC gear. It was the shiny new ARC Ref75 amp, top of line RefCD9, and top of line pre linestage. The sound was ok, good bass, powerful mids, and the usual ribbon highs. Overall, it was not coherent and the bass driver did not match with the ribbon element. Although I preferred the Ambience compared to Magneplanars, I asked for the speakers to be swapped to SF since with the Ambience there wasn't quite something right.

In the far corner was the new SF Olympica III that was somewhat neglected due to the much more gorgeous looking Strads and Amati's. Both of these I have had experience with, so I asked the chap to hook up those Olympica's. After a few minutes of warm up, the sound was very nice. Very smooth, great soundstage and well balanced. Good value for the price and cheaper than the Elipsa. Personally I prefer the Elipsa.

I went home with a smile thinking of that new shiny ARC Ref75. Then after listening to my system till nearly 4am that night, I was with a grin! I realised that the ARC system with SF was good no doubt, but it did not present what Quads can do with c-j gear. That glorious midrange, expansive soundstage and depth, plus the perfect balance is definitely something golden. In other words the absolute sound is all there. And this I believe can only be surpassed with its own ART series of amplifiers.

I also realised that only a few high-end companies have really achieved this perfect balance; the others have either way too much bass, or over-powering midrange (like horns) or the tweeters operate in outer space...
It's definitely a funny thing that only a handful of respected designers achieved this absolute sound way back in the 50's and 60's. And then perfected their designs in the late 70's and 80's. I believe thereafter no one really improved on their original designs. What we have now are technical improvements on materials and parts that no doubt improve sound effects. However, still to this day many new designers don't seem to understand what the perfect balance is nor have any idea of natural live sound. For those who do know, they have struck it on the mark and when this is achieved there really is no turning back.

Overall findings:

ARC Ref 75: great amp! weighs a ton, plenty of drive and very well balanced with KT120's (drawback: only has balanced inputs, no RCA type or SE)
ARC Ref CD9: excellent cd player with multiple playback formats and speeds. (personally prefer my McIntosh though at half the price, and not a huge difference in sound either).
ARC Ref Line stage: nice preamp with plenty of input/outputs for balanced connection & RCA.
SF Olympica III: very nice speakers, very well balanced and fantastic value for money. (personally prefer the Elipsa for bit more in price).

Overall a good match, though I must say I strongly believe that the above ARC system would probably present better sound with Electrostats...
Therefore yet to be discovered!

Thought I'd share this experience on this forum, and learn something new. As we never stop learning. Respect to the new ARC Ref gear, well thought out!
Cheers and Happy Easter!
RJ
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Do you know what ARC REF preamp you were hearing?
 

joeinid

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2011
1,543
12
400
NY
RJ,

Did you hear the SF Strads in this store or only the Olympica?

I hope to hear the Strads with my CJ gear someday. :)
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Do you know what ARC REF preamp you were hearing?

Yes mate, it was the Ref5SE. This was the top of the line Ref system from ARC. And yes it sounded good but did not impress me much in terms of my current system's value. For what it's worth I thought that perhaps it "may" (and I'm guessing here) sound better driving a pair of electrostats. Then again I am not using top-of-the line c-j gear either, and still achieving great results. Therefore, if I was to use SOTA gear from c-j obviously my Quads would be in a league of its own, and this I am seriously thinking of c-j's ART series amplifiers. Now that would be a real treat!

For those who do like ARC gear and I can see why, this top-of-the-line new Ref system is quite good actually, and perhaps would sound much better by a far margin on panel type speakers. And this is yet to be discovered. I do know someone who is actually driving Quads with ARC amps, but these are not Reference amps, just the standard series.
To me the standard series is nothing much, for that price there is far better value out there. Whereas the Ref series is something to rekon with but I strongly feel that this new ARC Ref gear still requires a lot of testing with different speaker configurations.

One thing I do know and can clearly say is that the new ARC Ref is nothing like the old Classic ARC sound! I still prefer the old classic ARC ref series; there was something really special in those amplifiers and it's sound. And once again I can hear my good old dad claiming "nothing compares to his Apogee Diva's driven with class A120w ARCRef monoblocks" amplifiers designed & made in the 70's! The Apogee's have been repaired so many times I think the total repair cost would have bought him a new car by now!

I Think ARC is trying really hard to preserve that warm expansive classic sound, but each time I hear their newer components that seem to be slipping away. The look and the build is all still there, but the sound and reliability is starting to get questionable...
RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
RJ,

Did you hear the SF Strads in this store or only the Olympica?

I hope to hear the Strads with my CJ gear someday. :)

Hi Joe,

It was the Olympica's on the ARC Ref system that day from this particular dealer.

However, I have listened to the Strads, Elipsa's and Amati's (which I had for a short while) using either McIntosh gear or my own c-j amplifiers. Overall the sound I really enjoyed the most was with the Elipsa's, just fantastic!

The Strads are great speakers too, but to me seem to have too many drivers that require far more room to open up. My kind of sound is of course that c-j "just sounds right" thing, that many simply cannot match, and a sound that you can listen for endless hours without the slightest fatigue... That's why I have Quads.

And this kind of similar sound that was just right, non fatiguing beautiful mids and highs and just the right weight in bass was from the Elipsa speakers. To me the Strads were just too over-powering. They were driven with two MC601's and McIntosh preC2300, although when the chap switched over to the MC275 that was much better! Much more expansive and open. Then when he hooked up the Elipsa's everything fell into place like walking into a cool room on a hot day...

If it was my choice, I'd go for the Elipsa's and not the Strads, unless I got some serious room treatment going for that extra bass driver, which frankly speaking is not critical.

Looking at your system there, just curious; what are you doing with all those amplifiers?
If I had what you have with the GAT and ART monoblocks, I'd just throw the rest of it out!

Cheers, RJ
 

joeinid

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2011
1,543
12
400
NY
Hi RJ,

Thank you so much for your updates. I really appreciate it.

I like a little variety, plus it really makes me appreciate my GAT/ART combo when I go back to it. I love to have music playing from when I come home after work. Sometimes the big tube amps are not practical for casual listening, so that's where the solid state comes in.

I've never heard the Elipsa. I think I need to hear them now. Thanks!
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Hi RJ,

Thank you so much for your updates. I really appreciate it.

I like a little variety, plus it really makes me appreciate my GAT/ART combo when I go back to it. I love to have music playing from when I come home after work. Sometimes the big tube amps are not practical for casual listening, so that's where the solid state comes in.

I've never heard the Elipsa. I think I need to hear them now. Thanks!

Hi mate,

Yes, indeed if you have not yet heard the Elipsa - Please go forth and listen!
Also just make sure that the dealer's system is upto par. Obviously they're not going to have the c-j pre/power combo you have; But at least something decent, perhaps a MC275or a high-end monoblock version. Or even an ARC Ref system (i.e. the new Ref series) would be quite nice. Something in that top-end Reference line must be matched with the Elipsa speakers. Try to audition the limited edition "Elipsa red" because they look gorgeous and they also sound stunning... I must surely be crazy!

It's that pot that Myles is passing around... especially from that grumpy old fella who says "high end does not exist from a good auudio system" whatever...

I am so crazy about them, one day... I can see myself with a second system most probably with an ARCRef75 just for the Elipsa's.

BTW I know of two people who purchased Strads and regretted it after listening to Quads knowing that they just busted 40 grand on the speakers alone. One of them managed to trade off his Strads and actually ended up with the Elipsa. The other chap had a very hard time selling his Strads, but went ahead and purchased a pair of Quads. Anyway, he's still trying to sell off his Strads with no offers... He's confident that I might buy them some day, yea right!
Oh! and I forgot to mention they both have c-j amplification; one with the big ET250S, and the other a LP75S, they don't regret the c-j purchase though!

Hope all goes well, the best for you would be to get the Elipsa's hooked up to your c-j amps, now that's what I'm talking. Sit back light that cigar and enjoy that drink!
Cheers, RJ
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Hi RJ,

Thank you so much for your updates. I really appreciate it.

I like a little variety, plus it really makes me appreciate my GAT/ART combo when I go back to it. I love to have music playing from when I come home after work. Sometimes the big tube amps are not practical for casual listening, so that's where the solid state comes in.

I've never heard the Elipsa. I think I need to hear them now. Thanks!

Joe,

IMHO the Elipsa can not be compared with the Stradivari. I have experience with both, and when the Stradivari are singing, they are one of the great speakers I have owned and could happily live with. The Elipsa would not make me so happy ... :(.

I can not resist introducing now the Amati Aniversario, that a close friend owns with ARC tubes (REF3+REF110). IMHO it is clearly a better speaker than the Elipsa, and the Stradivari is also significantly better than the Amati.

BTW, I am only addressing the speaker per se - I am not considering possible interactions with your room or system.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) BTW I know of two people who purchased Strads and regretted it after listening to Quads knowing that they just busted 40 grand on the speakers alone. One of them managed to trade off his Strads and actually ended up with the Elipsa. The other chap had a very hard time selling his Strads, but went ahead and purchased a pair of Quads. Anyway, he's still trying to sell off his Strads with no offers... He's confident that I might buy them some day, yea right!
Oh! and I forgot to mention they both have c-j amplification; one with the big ET250S, and the other a LP75S, they don't regret the c-j purchase though!

Hope all goes well, the best for you would be to get the Elipsa's hooked up to your c-j amps, now that's what I'm talking. Sit back light that cigar and enjoy that drink!
Cheers, RJ

RJ,

One of the nice thinks of forums is that most of the time we disagree ... The Stradivaris are not Quads and can do thinks that Quads can not even imagine. They do not have the single person (OK, two person if you sit close) sweet spot of the Quads, and have the scale, power and dynamics needed for some types of music at realistic levels.

At one point I agree with you - none of the amplifiers you refer can drive appropriately the Stradivari - or is the LP75S the LP 275S that is currently seating in my room?
 

joeinid

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2011
1,543
12
400
NY
My lust for Strads is only because they are one of only two speaker models that ALWAYS gave me goosebumps every time I listened and always with tube gear. Every session has been memorable. Sure my room could use a little help but I think the Strads will work well. Sorry to take this off topic but I will eventually get my pair.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
An interesting discussion...particularly for me for 2 reasons. 1) I owned the Strads for a few years 2) I actually auditioned them side by side with: Guarneris, Quad 2805 and 2905s and Wilson Maxx IIs over a period of 2 days. Note: all of my listening experience and preference for SF Strads is definitely helped by the fact that I paid a fraction of what RJs friends seem to have paid...a good deal less than half what it appears they paid.

I first auditioned my then SF Guarneris against 2805 first. In my own personal opinion, I was happier owning the Guarneris (which I eventually traded back in for Strads) than I would have been with the 2805s. That was a real shocker for me. There was something just that bit more tangible in the strike of the notes with the Guarneris than the 2805s (not the 2905s which I found superior for their stronger/fuller presentation).

That was again a very big surprise...and took me down the road of the dealer bringing out the 2905s for a few hours...and then the Strads. Took all day.

And that was when I realized that with the right amplification, the Strads did most everything the Gs did...but with FAR, FAR greater scale, authority, control and delineation. I was most surprised...I found quite a bit of smearing in the lower mids/upper bass with the wrong amp...but when they switched to bigger ARC monos...that all disappeared. I ended up with the Strads as my favorite for that day...and then went back to match them up against the Maxx IIs a few weeks later. I also heard the Elipsas in between. The shootout results with the Maxxes were that the Strads had a sound I preferred though I knew it was a sound designed by Serblin...but it did not have the all-out power of the Maxx IIs when pushed...but had maybe 75% of the full-out Maxx power and drive...which at the time was more than enough for me, given that I had a sound I loved in the SF Strads.

The key is I ended up driving the Strads with the Gryphon Antileon...which really woke up the Strads in the bass and upper bass which helped clear things up. I feel confident if my front end were what it is today...it would be even better. That said, I managed to do an even trade years ago with the Strads for the Wilson X1s and I have never looked back. All the magic of the SF sound of my Strads, with far greater detail, power, effortlessness, scale and ease. I was most surprised at that first part, despite having loved the X1s the first time i heard them. But it is how i hear them and consider myself fortunate now to hear them every day. my two cents.
 

bvdiman

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2013
69
10
240
Hi Joeinid, I too had SF Strads for a couple years.. It replaced an MG20.1, which replaced ML Prodigy prior (at this stage did considered Q2905 but decided not enough real world dynamics for most music I listen to).

Agree with LL21 that Strads needed iron-fisted control esp. in the bass/upper bass region to be acceptably coherent sounding. But in my case, even the big boys from ARC then could not quite reigned them in properly. Control yes, deep yes, but ended up having too much (voluminous) of it that gets a little overbearing.

I found that competent SS amp fronted by a tube pre to be best with Strads. Overall, I found them to have most of the positive attributes of Maggies with added dynamics - even sounded alike in many ways to me. Lloyd, IIRC your thread at Agon was where we first crossed path discussing amps for your then new Strads?! ~ Time flies..:b

*Few pics I managed to salvage off an old mobile ph's memory card so pardon the crappy shots. System were circa 8-12yrs ago, transitional period from Maggie to Strads. Memories.. #vintage#museum :p

Image001.jpg
REF600mkIII + REF3
Image005.jpg
FMA611 + REF3
26082006.jpg
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Wow! Great memory! That sounds about right! Time flies indeed! So much has changed...fortunately all for the better. And the SF Strads WERE great. I actually told the dealer when I got them...I would only consider 1 speaker...the Wilson X1/Grand Slamms at a deep discount...otherwise, I was extremely happy with the Strads. (Sure enough, he rang me the day he got hold of a pair of X1s about 3 years later...deal was done that day.). Your system has ascended to super highs in that same time!!!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
BTW, great feedback on SF Strads from someone who also used to own them. Always nice to hear a good pair of seasoned ears who has similar observations.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
It's always nice to hear from people who reinforce your personal beliefs. ;)
 

joeinid

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2011
1,543
12
400
NY
Wow! Thank you guys for all the great posts and information.

Great photos bvdiman!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
It's always nice to hear from people who reinforce your personal beliefs. ;)
Yes, I suppose so. That said, I always try to remain open-minded to cogent opinions which are contrary to my own. Sometimes, I learn or change my mind as a result. Sometimes not. In any event, I do respect Bvdimans opinions (always have) so I have to say yes, its nice to know he shared some observations which I also had.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Wow! Thank you guys for all the great posts and information.

Great photos bvdiman!

Good luck Joe. Looking forward to reading about the Strads when they finally land in your system.
 

joeinid

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2011
1,543
12
400
NY
Good luck Joe. Looking forward to reading about the Strads when they finally land in your system.

Thanks Lloyd. I have a pair of Harbeth 40.1 on order to hold me for a little while until I pull the trigger. :) Should be fun.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Thanks Lloyd. I have a pair of Harbeth 40.1 on order to hold me for a little while until I pull the trigger. :) Should be fun.

Nice...I have read good things about them, and remember hearing a Harbeth some time ago.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing