Roll your own??

audioguy

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Apr 20, 2010
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Gotcha! This has nothing to do with that (exactly), BUT, part of the reason for this question is to determine how many who visit here are "hands on" who do a lot or most of the tweaking in their room (passive or active) and how many rely on their dealer or other experts in the field to extract the best from their room? Did you set up your DRC/EQ device or did someone else? Or do you even have EQ on your pre-pro?
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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For my own home, I go it alone. For our showroom, Keith Yates and his team have done the work.

For treatment, for my current theater just using DRC. For the second theater it will have both DRC and room treatment. Plus, if budget allows, planer speakers to reduce effect of room reflections.
 

rsbeck

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Apr 20, 2010
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Keith Yates is my go to guy, too, and not just in the listening room and theater, he solved acoustic problems all over my house. Guy's amazing.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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New York City
Keith Yates is my go to guy, too, and not just in the listening room and theater, he solved acoustic problems all over my house. Guy's amazing.

Bet the bathroom was the toughest project :)
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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I do it myself, but I do have some experience along those lines (including several hundred installs back in my youth and a lot of live/studio/"hi-fi" work). I use RPlusD with my laptop PC, a Creative X-Fi external sound unit, a cheap but flat (M-Audio Pro) preamp, and earthworks measurement mic (cost more than everything else put together, except the laptop). It really helped verify room modes (calculated using a Mathcad program), dial in some of the treatment, and adjust the final MCACC settings to flatten the response. My room is about +/- 3 dB using 1/3-octave smoothing from 10 Hz to 20 kHz, with one nasty room mode I haven't quite killed dipping to about -6 dB between 40 and 50 Hz.

My experience with dealers is that very few know how to do it properly and many won't tell you they don't know; they read a book (or a forum) and claim the expertise. The real experts, and I do not claim to be one, are harder to find but well worth the effort (and cost). I am tempted to look for one around here as I could use someone to bounce some ideas around.

All imo - Don
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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HI

I had to do it myself too.. WHere I lived there was no delaers and having the best to come to my abode was as=king too much so ...
It was a combination of software on a laptop , External Sound Card, Software and calibrated microphone (by the way, just acquired a calibrated Behringer ECM 8000 from www.cross-spectrum.com , yeah, I know it is cheap but it is calibrated against an ANSI reference so ..).. I use various program to calculate where the rooms nodes are... My experience however shows that these programs are just starting points since the intensity and sometimes positions of these rooms nodes are not what and where the programs predict dues to variations in room construction ( Concrete is closer to the software Gypsum boards vary tremendously) ... Being mostly in the USA now, I will likely use the services of people like Keith Yates, Denis Erskine, Terry Montlick , Earl Geddes , etc once I am ready ...
I don't think Small Room Acoustics is the province of Amateurs ..
And I agree with Don H50 .. Most dealers, especially High End dealers don't have a clue about Room acoustics and the interface between Room and speaker .. For too many of them Room Acoustics is the inclusion of a few Bass traps and Room Tunes or other in a room with no real acoustics survey and measurements .. AS a matter of fact most audiophiles see room acoustics as a distant second to swapping components but this would be for another post ...

Frantz


Frantz
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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RPlusD will do time-domain (impulse, RT/x etc.) response as well as Bode magnitude plots (frequency response). Just frequency response alone can be misleading as phasing matters, as does the reverberant field of the room. Of course, deciding upon frequency-domain smoothing functions can be maddening. Impulse response is nice, but deciding upon the right gating time and weighting functions can also drive one insane.

For me, it's a short drive - Don
 

LesAuber

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Jun 21, 2010
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Wouldn't worry about it. The voices have always told me that sanity is far overrated. Who am I to say they're wrong.

Is RPlusD difficult to run other than the myriad options?
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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Well, it is more advanced than some other programs, but I did not find it too hard to use. You must RTFM, however. If you read and follow the initial help files you can generate your first readings pretty easily, then customize later. I like the fact that it has all the tweaks (I be a geek engineer, however), allows me to enter a correction table for my measurement mic, uses a combination test signal (impulse plus pink noise), and has a bunch of filter options to play around with for using a box like the little Behringer (which I am not doing after buying the filter add-on, natch). The manual has some good examples of real-world situations to whet your appetite for getting an Everest manual or similar guide to understanding what acoustics and room treatment is all about.

There are also free programs like REW that will do most of this. I have not used REW, just piddled a little, and the learning curve there seemed similar (to first measurements).

HTH - Don
 

LesAuber

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2010
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Thanks Don. Guilty of being a geek engineer also. Wrong flavor though for this. The impulse testing is interesting addition. I've done 1/3 octave RTA and not really found anything unexpected.

If you're referring to F. Alton Everest I've read two of his books some time back.
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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More knobs and switches, more parameters to play with, what more can we ask for? :)

And yup, that's the man! I like his books -- sort of an "advanced layman's" guide with lots of practical stuff. My grad acoustics text is painful to me now (did I ever really understood integral-differential equations in multiple dimensions, and how on earth did I get the right answer out of the multi-dimensional wave equation?!? Hard to believe I actually did well in that class...)
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
My grad acoustics text is painful to me now (did I ever really understood integral-differential equations in multiple dimensions, and how on earth did I get the right answer out of the multi-dimensional wave equation?!? Hard to believe I actually did well in that class...)

Sounds like me. My degree is in math and I can still add, subtract, multiply and divide with the best of them but I'm not exactly sure how I got through all of the other classes (which was 40 years ago!)
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Calculators. And, of course, we all know 2 + 2 = 5 for very large values of 2... :)


OT: Is that a black lab in your avatar? My black lab mix and her red collar are at my feet as I type this morning (playing hooky to do some things around the house and sign for my new amp when it arrives; the first person who hums "an-tic-ipa-a-tion" gets shot! :) )
 

JonFo

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2010
322
1
925
Big Canoe, GA
www.jonathanfoulkes.com
Gotcha! This has nothing to do with that (exactly), BUT, part of the reason for this question is to determine how many who visit here are "hands on" who do a lot or most of the tweaking in their room (passive or active) and how many rely on their dealer or other experts in the field to extract the best from their room? Did you set up your DRC/EQ device or did someone else? Or do you even have EQ on your pre-pro?

Very much roll my own, here’s the high-level outline:

Twelve years ago designed a custom audio/HT room for new custom home being built. Room sized and tuned to house my MartinLogan Monoliths and Sequel speakers in a multichannel audio and video setup. Followed by ten years of measuring, re-engineering elements and doing some pretty substantial room treatments as well as continually evolving EQ/Room correction.

This room was sized (26 x 15 x 10’) to meet the idealized ratios the acoustic literature had at the time, as well as fitting the guidelines for ML speaker placement (3’ away from walls and listeners spaced >1.2x width).

Point #1 – Custom room, ideally sized for large line source dipole positioning.

Next, to enable utmost speaker to room integration, and to address the shortcomings of passive crossovers, my rig uses full-active speaker processor based crossovers and EQ. Mine is based on the awesome DBX-4800 speaker processors. Using these I tune the panel to woofer integration to yield best in-room measurements for low distortion at high volume and best phase coherence. This also required replacing the woofers in the Monoliths with units tuned for the frequencies I needed to cover (60 – 300Hz).
I use very, very mild EQ for woofers and sub in the DBX, mostly it’s used for timing /phase (delays) alignment as well as frequency spectrum split and gain management.
Built an infinite baffle Sub and a custom center channel to mate with the rest as well.

Point #2 – Customized active speakers to perform at their absolute best in my room, with full EQ, crossover and gain control.

Over the ten year period, I did hundreds of acoustic measurement using ETF (AKA R+D from AcoustiSoft) and REW. Using this data, I not only engineered the speaker and crossover customizations, I also got seriously into physical acoustic treatments and how to tune a room ideally for large ESL line-source dipoles.
This resulted in a room that has over 45 commercial devices and many DIY elements, including two 14’-long custom sidewall treatments seen in this panoramic front shot.



Lest anyone think this is over damped, the rear view shows the many diffusers and absorbers in the back of the room.



Trust me, when one has 72 square feet of radiating surfaces in the room, it takes a good bit of room treatment to manage resonances at 100dB SPL.

Point #3 – Treated room based on acoustic calculations and objective measurements to ensure optimal resonance and reflection control.

Now that the room, speakers and room treatment are all in place, I apply the final layer of polish to the system using the Audyssey Pro features in my Denon AVP-A1HD preamp.
It took a lot of practice and reconfirmation using R+D to learn how to best operate the measurement process for Audyssey. Since measuring large line sources is a challenge unto itself, I documented the recommended process for doing DRC measurement of them in this thread on the MartinLogan owners club.
The FIR-based process Audyssey uses makes intra-speaker as well as inter-speaker phase and timing so accurate, the imaging is uncanny.
The result is a hyper-cohesive soundfield that allows me to hear the exact position of multichannel mixes. On material like Porcupine Tree DVD-A’s or classical SACD’s, I hear the recording space (classical) or the instrument positioning exactly where the mixer wanted it to be, inside or outside the circle of speakers.
Frequency balance is absolute between speakers, I cannot tell when the center is operating or not.
And finally, room modes in the bass and mid-bass are very well controlled and bass is articulate at any volume level.

Point #4 – Room correction based on careful measurements and well-implemented solutions yields astounding accuracy


So there you have it, the four points of what ‘roll your own’ I do to get the best audio and video experience. :cool:
 

JonFo

Well-Known Member
Jun 11, 2010
322
1
925
Big Canoe, GA
www.jonathanfoulkes.com
That's the beauty of a well tuned room with a great room corrector. The system is tuned so that the right chair (when looking towards the rear of the room) is the 'prime' position, as that's where the critical first sample and additional metrics points are taken with Audyssey Pro.

As soon as get rid of the CRT (soon), the prime listening position will move forward by 14" and be perfectly centered on a new three seat sofa. But even so, as it stands now, it images great.
 

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