Liquid-filled power cables?

audioguy said:

And you would expect any thing different with a liquid filled cable manufacturer? ---- or a couple of dozen other high end audio doo-hickie manufacturers I won't name! My college education was in math, mechanical and electrical engineering. Apparently they must have forgotten to teach me some pretty important stuff.

I continue to be amazed. I think I'll go downstairs and sit on my Jello filled cushions which sit on my Styrofoam filled sofa which in turn sits on my peanut butter coated carpeting and listen deeper into the sound-stage.

Sorry guys. This just gets more and more ridiculous to me. Take the money and go spend it on room treatment!!!

Or go buy your wife a nice dinner.

WOW!

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Not that I was expecting anything more.. Only that I will welcome to see proof of a cable on this dimesnion with two wires and that can sport this absurdly low capacitance ... the beautiful part for manufacturer of such ware is their following ...
If you make it .. they (some audiophiles) will buy ..

P.S. Ohhh they taught you well .. Don't worry ...

@frantz... the proof is in the listening.

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Listening under what conditions? If there is such a "profound" difference don't you think it would show on some kind of measurements ? through the speakers? I'll be generous from the output of preamp ... If indeed it does that is proof for me .. whether we can hear it is a different matter ...
Now I am still marveling at this vanishingly low capacitance for a cable with (a least. a pair of wire) ...
We can be fooled into believing quite a number of things... thus , I repeat the existence of commercials ... No different In Audio.. Could actually be easier in Audio so eager are we to improve our systems through the latest tweaks .. most of them pure unscientific nonsense that sounds somewhat like (or claim themselves from) Advanced Science .. This mention for example of liquid polymer which are used in surface mounted high frequency microwave boards to mitigate the stray inductance which manifest itself on circuit traces at very high frequencies ( upward of 10 GHz) .. in an application where the desired signal frequency is to be 60 Hz!!! The liquid polymer and I stand to be corrected if I am wrong CANNOT do anything to the inductance in that frequency range .. It won't filter anything can't do anything in that sense .. Except for decoration ...but it does seem special on paer on on the tongue .. thus it is used in their marketing-talk... then next year they will "discover" another formulation, more expensive of course, ALWAYS more expensive that will be better sounding , provide a blacker background and light years of depth in the soundstage...

Question to those who believe in such cables. Since research laboratories rely on precision NO audiophile will ever need ( I could be corrected there as well), isn't it interesting that these don't ever use such special cables? I would surmise that such entities have budget several orders of magnitude larger than the expenditures in cables and everything else of ALL audiophiles on the planet.. combined?

Nicholas Bedworth said:

@audioguy... I bet you don't like lava lamps, either. Geez Regarding spending money on room treatment versus a nice dinner with the wife, well, the room treatment one can enjoy every day. Regarding not being taught everything useful while in school, my advisor's admonition was "life begins after graduate school". That's when you start learning everything that was left out of the curriculum. The corollary was "the whole point of graduate school is to graduate".

@frantz... the proof is in the listening.

Doing a little reverse engineering on the cable, it looks like there is a thin metal film in a liquid gel. Such gels are used as insulators in some demanding appliccations. They can also be conductors, with a different formulation.

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Yes and often the room treatment is there long after the wife has left

A liquid filled power cable should be the ideal one to play Georg Friedrich Händel’s Wassermusik

MylesBAstor said:

Yes and often the room treatment is there long after the wife has left

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No she got that in the divorce. Then she used it as play mats in the kids play room. "Why get married? Just find a woman you hate and buy her a house."

MylesBAstor said:

Yes and often the room treatment is there long after the wife has left

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But that's about all I got to keep

Nicholas Bedworth said:

Regarding not being taught everything useful while in school, my advisor's admonition was "life begins after graduate school". That's when you start learning everything that was left out of the curriculum. The corollary was "the whole point of graduate school is to graduate".

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see, here is the problem with that logic. Of course, by definition, you learn things not in the curriculum after you leave, after all, they were not in the curriculum. Rather a mundane and shallow point you made, but so far so good.

But why does that 'mean' that you don't bother to learn what IS in the curriculum?

Look at the abysmal state of knowledge in the world around us. Because, with the absolutely LOW bar set in society, most CAN graduate from any given level without learning the curriculum!

@frantz... the proof is in the listening.

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Ah, the industry must love comments like that. How else do they get people to continually buy the latest and greates fad that has no grounding in science?? (just a general observation, still waiting for confirmation of a few questions regarding this one)

Have we moved past quantum yet?? Anyone else recognise how marketers take advantage of the appaling state of the education level in society?

Easy, we know most people do not understand what they've been taught, it's all 'way too complicated for me to understand', hence throw them a word that is deep and difficult and rely on the ignorance to do the work for them.

'Oooh, quantum cables! WOW'

So what hard to understand buzzword is the industry up to now??

Call me thoroughly confused Nicholas

A f Transfer Function is simply a mathematical representation of relationship between the output of a system to its input .. All parameters included : Phase and modulus ... The Phase relationship and Modulus are as I have noted implicit . Why would they make a special case of that in any (linear, time-invariant) system?

Nicholas Bedworth said:

1. Regarding the 17 pF capacitance, and 0.18 Ohm/8 ft resistance, these numbers come from an independent electrical engineering testing firm, not the manufacturer. On the other hand, as you can imagine, he was pleased with the results. The inductance is .0053 millHenry/meter.

2. The polymers used in the cables were selected based upon a lot of experimentation. In addition to the polymer conductors, there is also a solid wire ground, which, for power cords, is connected at both ends. And it helps give a little mechanical strength to the cable.

3. The polymer has thin metal band inserted a few inches in from the plug; this part essentially couples the metals in the plug/receptable to the liquid.

4. The passive measurements of capacitance, resistance, etc., are of course only a tiny part of what contributes to the overall sound and quality of a cable. At least in this case, both parameters are at highly desireable levels, which is good for starters. If two different cables sound differently, but have similar passive measurements, obviously additional differentiating parameters need to be identified and measured.

5. For example, cables can be evaluated based upon dynamic behavior such as MTF and PTF, or phase transfer function. Guess which one is more important? Hint: PTF is critically-dependent upon pixel or sample depth. There can be, or rather, usually is, temporal "smearing" or even worse, "scrambling" of the frequency components of the signal going through a cable, such that not everything "arrives" at the other end at the right time.

6. Jerry reports that the gels are much less susceptible to mechanical noise pickup, meaning microphonics, which is confirmed by my own observations. You tap them, nothing happens. Tapping some types of conventional cable causes quite a pop in the system. Their behavior when exposed to EMI may also be quite different from metals.

7. Jerry also has observed that ringing (related to 5 usually) is greatly reduced using the conductive gels.

Regarding conventional metal cables, the manufacturing techniques have a great influence upon sound quality. For example, there is fast versus slow drawing of the cable in the first place, which has an effect upon the microscropic cyrstalline structure; and there's the of surface smoothness: tiny imperfections create large field strength differences; it's simply Gauss' law applied to surfaces compared to points.

So there are the electrical consequences of mechanical issues as well.

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Now I breath better measurements are squarely similar to 10 AWG zip cord .. No problems there ... I guess those "experimentations" are trade secret so they shall not be known , only heard ...
Same with the polymer used
Of course I object to the fact that L, R, C cannot fully describe what the cable does or in that case does not ... Care to elaborate a little more on what other new parameters is needed or invoked here ?

Thanks for chasing this, Nicholas!

17 pF per foot, or 17 pF/8 ft (2.125 pF/ft)? If the former, that makes sense; the latter seems too low for "normal" cables. The rest seems in line with physics known and loved by all...

RLC parameters do not fully describe a cable; you need G too, and several other parameters when measuring at microwave frequencies or very low signal levels (dielectric absorption, roughness parameters, dispersion/hysteresis, noise parameters, etc.) However, I have not found parameters other than RLC to have an audible impact on speakers, nor on interconnects in ages-old DBT trials (though the debate rages on). It was one of those cases where it was easier to measure something than to hear it...

Don
I will agree with you and suddenly we need to go very, very slow .. First we are squarely as far as microwave as it is mathematically possible .. second , I hate you guys when it is required in ANy discussion to remember parameters that I have not used for so many years, such as the Inverse Hybrid parameters, G, The problem however would be that the use of such parameters would be warranted if the Votage and Intensity were independent variables .. They are not in this case.. They are related., thus LRC , we will have to do with (I could be wrong that is so 30 years ago .. )

Still we have to bend, flex, weave, bob to fish for an explanation for a simple thing a piece of wire to carry AC for a few meter ... At best a filter would be understandable and efficient and maybe further serious shielding but ..polymers? Allow me to continue to have strondg doubts .. Better to be violently skeptical ... This doesn't cut the mustard ...

Nickolas, I also thank you for unning QA on these numbers.

I would have some questions on your comments.

You are stating that things like vibrations can have an effect on the signal and subsequently on the sound. Do you have an estimate for how large these extraneous effects are compared to typical signal? Why do you thing they are audible?

Thanks in advance.

Nicholas

I never said power cable were to be analyzed as filters, in the absolute any device is a filter so let’s not go (again) there. I said if there were an attached filter and shielding I would have understood and added that this filter may have to be very large to correctly filter EMI and RFI and make sure only 60 Hz go through… that is what I meant.

It is important that we remain with feet firmly planted on the ground in this debate. To calculate the area of a rectangle one can simply use the arithmetic formula: Area = Length x Width. Or use a more involved, complicated but ultimately inefficient method: one can use an integral. It can get more fun (or pedantic depending on your point of view) and one can invoke Taylor’s Theorem that states that any sufficiently smooth function can be locally be approximated with Polynomials ... Don’t worry a line is smooth mathematically and Taylor’s will not even yield an approximation but the real value of the lines lengths … Wow!! All that for simply the area of a rectangle!! Talking about killing a mosquito with a tank!!

And that is what we are getting at here... using big words and terms to describe a very, very simple component. We are into polymer that would absorb vibration... What vibrations I ask you, those transmitted by the speakers? Those polymers what do they do damp the mechanical vibrations? Or do they have some particular (magical) electrical characteristics? Has it EVER been proven that those small vibrations impede in any way the flow of electrons? And what to do with the larger mechanical vibrations the electrons or their siblings were subjected to during their long transit toward your system (trucks, people, cars, birds, wind, etc) I was going to forget the vibrations from the Electric plant generators themselves… And like that! We are swimming in a sea of nonsense.

We are at opposite end on this cable spectrum. My view on the effects of Power cable in particular has always been very that they make NO difference once they are able to carry the appropriate current to the load. That all there is to it, frankly. The role of cleaning the AC of its impurities is NOT that of a cable. A component is needed and often it is large because of the filtering network required for the purpose.

Science was evoked to try to explain what a simple component does. Now Science will surely be rejected if it were asked to the proponent of this cable to listen to it in a DBT... Such scientific protocol will reveal to the people trying so hard to explain that particular piece of marketing material, err, cable, that it is sonically undistinguishable from a good old piece of 10 AWG zip cord. Once sighted the resolving power of the trusted ears would magically re-appear and everyone will marvel at the galaxy-wide soundstage, the cosmic black background and the stellar highs …

If it floats your boat and you have the money for it, fine... else Leave science alone as it is, too many High End Audio manufacturers have sullied it in the name of marketing their wares and I am being nice. Too many outright lies and pseudo science... This one seems to fit that genre too, IMHO …

@Frantz: G = shunt conductance, 1/R. That is, R in series with L, shunt C and G define the basic parameters of a cable.

@Nicholas: Measuring just the cable is fairly easy, given the right equipment, even for EMI testing (just takes a lot more equipment). Measuring in-situ is another wrinkle... While I can and have mesaured vibration senstivity and the like, I have personally not seen it rise to the level of audibility. As I have said before, ears of clay, and I'm just a hairy-knuckled engineer, not a scientist.

BTW, where did "DonHo" come from? Some Hawaii thing?

FrantzM said:

Has it EVER been proven that those small vibrations impede in any way the flow of electrons?

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I don't think the issue is impeding electrons but that vibrations can change the electrical characteristics of devices. The term "microphonic" is used to describe this effect. Sometimes the reason that occurs is due to changed capacitance as the distance between the two conductor changes. Indeed, some types of microphones precisely work this way and hence where the name came from.

I used to repair electronics and I can't tell you how many things I would find to be microphonic in practice.

Looking for a good description of this effect, I landed on Wiki article which while short, does state the situation rather well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphonic

"Microphonics describes the phenomenon where certain components in electronic devices transform mechanical vibrations into an undesired electrical signal (noise). The term is derived by analogy to microphones where that behavior is inherent in the design, while with modern electronics it is sometimes an intentionally added effect but usually undesired.

When electronic equipment was built using vacuum tubes, microphonics were often a serious design problem. The charged elements in the vacuum tubes can vibrate and the motion would change the distance between the elements, producing charge flows in and out of the tube in a manner identical to a capacitor microphone. A system sufficiently susceptible to microphonics could experience feedback. Certain models or grades of vacuum tubes were made with thicker internal insulating plates to minimize these effects.[1]
With the advent of solid state electronics (transistors), this major source of microphonics was eliminated but smaller sources still remain. The ceramic EIA Class 2 dielectrics used in high-K capacitors ("Z5U" and "X7R") are piezoelectric and will directly transform mechanical vibration into a voltage in exactly the same fashion as a ceramic microphone [2] does. Film capacitors using soft dielectric materials can also be microphonic due to vibrational energy physically moving the plates of the capacitor. Wiring and cables can also exhibit microphonics as charged conductors move around, and various materials can develop triboelectric ("static") charges that couple to the electronic circuits. Glass capacitors, while quite expensive, are essentially nonmicrophonic."

Of course the million dollar question is whether the change is significant enough in a speaker cable and if so, whether this construction does anything to it. I seem to recall finding devices I was repairing where banging on the wires inside the box would make audible difference in the sound one would hear. Don't recall if that was due to cold solder joint or what but I remember those incidents.

And what to do with the larger mechanical vibrations the electrons or their siblings were subjected to during their long transit toward your system (trucks, people, cars, birds, wind, etc) I was going to forget the vibrations from the Electric plant generators themselves…

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Per above principal, we only care about vibrations during playback of music. If they are correlated as such, they would have a bigger effect than they would otherwise.

Let me say that I am not saying anything about whether speaker wires are different or not but just that there is some science to back in theory at least what might be in play .