Motherboard for audio

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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In experiments with PCs on another forum we have come to the tentative conclusions that one crucial factor in computer audio is the power on the motherboard. In moving from SMPS to linear to battery power, a commensurate & noticeable improvement in sound was noted. In further separating the battery power into 12V, 5V & 3.3V feeds, another improvement in sound was achieved.

The CAPS 3.0 runs on battery power.

Given that Vincent just said his preference is for conversion isolated and re-clocked outside of the computer, I don't think you disagree on this point. Power supply impact is, of course, another question.

But I2S Pro reclocks using the DAC clock. I'd be shocked if this were inferior to outboard reclocking, since folks using I2S Pro report getting the best sound out of their MSN DAC. In fact, the MSB should be switched to reclocking mode for synchronous sources (and asynch USB), which reclocks inside the DAC as well, so with MSb reclocking outside the DAC is never the best architetcture.
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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The CAPS 3.0 runs on battery power.
OK, I didn't know that. The next step improvement (according to our tests) is to supply each rail (12V, 5V 3.3V) from individual battery. The ultimate config might be to bypass the VRM switcher (Voltage Regulator Module) & supply direct power to the relevant electrical points? I don't know, I'm just surmising - it may be a case of diminishing returns here?

It may be a case of the various PC supplies are cross-contaminating noise between each rail & separate supplies reduces some of this? This, to me, is the problem with computer audio & why there are fights about it - what's acceptable for digital functioning is not necessarily OK for digital AUDIO functioning! So most mobo are built to fulfill the brief of digital processing functioning & no consideration given to audio. We are left with working with tools (PCs) not designed for the purpose (audio) & is it any wonder that different software players sound different, that different PS approaches sound different?



But I2S Pro reclocks using the DAC clock. I'd be shocked if this were inferior to outboard reclocking, since folks using I2S Pro report getting the best sound out of their MSN DAC. In fact, the MSB should be switched to reclocking mode for synchronous sources (and asynch USB), which reclocks inside the DAC as well, so with MSb reclocking outside the DAC is never the best architetcture.
Yes, I saw your answer to Vincent & concur that timing issues seem to be dealt with using the config you outlined, if I understand it correctly.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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OK, I didn't know that. The next step improvement (according to our tests) is to supply each rail (12V, 5V 3.3V) from individual battery. The ultimate config might be to bypass the VRM switcher (Voltage Regulator Module) & supply direct power to the relevant electrical points? I don't know, I'm just surmising - it may be a case of diminishing returns here?

The guys rebuilding my CAPS (who sells his own servers), actually told me a single 12v battery power source is worse than a switching supply, because internal DC voltage conversion introduces more noise. So the only way to do this right is provide separate voltage to each rail. I have no intention of going down this path though.
 

jkeny

Industry Expert, Member Sponsor
Feb 9, 2012
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The guys rebuilding my CAPS (who sells his own servers), actually told me a single 12v battery power source is worse than a switching supply, because internal DC voltage conversion introduces more noise. So the only way to do this right is provide separate voltage to each rail. I have no intention of going down this path though.

Again, hard & fast statements can be misleading (as can the battery noise graphs appearing on TNT). It depends on the SMPS & on the battery -low impedance batteries seem to have lowest internal noise & it depends on what current is being drawn from them. As I said our tests when comparing stock SMPS PS Vs Pico PS Vs Linear PS Vs Battery PS gave audible improvements along this journey. I'm not saying that the only way to do this right is with separate supplies but this did provide another improvement.

All this would seem to suggest that a mobo built with PS isolation & low noise in mind is the correct approach but I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

In the meantime excellent sound can be achieved with what is available.

The other approach is to look at low power ARM-based boards that have simpler PS requirements, lower current draw & therefore less PS noise
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
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Ed, who is building your CAPS and how is it spec'ed?
 

Julf

New Member
Nov 27, 2011
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Amsterdam, The Netherlands
As I said our tests when comparing stock SMPS PS Vs Pico PS Vs Linear PS Vs Battery PS gave audible improvements along this journey.

I am guessing I am not the only one who would love to see those test results. Any pointers?
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
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Ed, who is building your CAPS and how is it spec'ed?

I had it build originally by smallgreencomputer. It was basically a standard CAPS 3, in a larger chassis with added blue ray drive and MCH lynx card, for mixed 2 channel and MCH use. It arrived with the Lynx card dead on arrival, due to a defective PCIe slot on the motherboard. I have had problems with it since day one, and eventually send it to Neal van Berg (builder of Music vault). He diagnosis defective motherboard and will fix and rebuild it. Smallgreencomputer's customer service attitude has been less than stellar (understatement), while Neal has been phenomenal and bend over backwards to try to help me out.
 

colonial

New Member
Apr 11, 2014
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So what's the best Mini-ITX Board for audio providing the lowest possible jitter (Vincent you are our hero). The well tempered computer is by far the best guide I've ever read on the subject of Computer Audio :)
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
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Thanks for the kind words about my website.

I’m afraid you asking an impossible question.
There are a lot of PC’s on sale claimed to be optimized for audio, of audiophile quality, etc but these claims are almost never backed by any measurement.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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www.pugetsoundstudios.com
You should go to several Digital Audio Workstation websites and see what they approve for their systems. Hell, if it's used for the recording/mixing/mastering and monitoring, then you should be fine for the reproduction.
 

colonial

New Member
Apr 11, 2014
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0
0
Okay. Pro recording gear it is (used in the basement)! What if using a USB to I2S interface - will that mitigate the effects of a really bad motherboard?
 

prerich

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2012
246
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923
Thanks for the kind words about my website.

I’m afraid you asking an impossible question.
There are a lot of PC’s on sale claimed to be optimized for audio, of audiophile quality, etc but these claims are almost never backed by any measurement.
I've been waiting for a pure "audiophile" motherboard for quite a while, but the industry seems like it doesn't understand what audio people want. I participate on a computer forum too - and the people are asking why the Asus STX II 7.1 is needed. I tell them for multi-channel (7.1 RCA outs with the STX using PCIE - before you had to use the ST which is PCI only to get 7.1 RCA outs ...or you could buy a Omega Claro Halo XT. I own both cards) and they keep refering to headsets and gaming - saying the RCA outs are not needed. The basic answer for most computer people that are not into hi-fi or HT is "just use the receiver's dac". The industry in turn thinks the same thing (not realizing that there's a market for a true audiophile or High End HTPC motherboard).
What really gets me is that there are some really good audio chips out there that can easily be applied in a motherboard - but they just won't do it (the ESS 9018 is the premier multi-channel dac but no motherboard is equipped with it).
:(
 

prerich

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2012
246
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923
@ Bruce B "Ain't it the truth"

Well, that is true...as I own three Bag End M6 monitors and no one seems to know what they are. I would just like to see a bit of the same quality that goes into some of the pro gear, find its way into a motherboard. "Audiophiles" sometimes don't realize that they are missing out skipping and dismissing pro-gear.
 

prerich

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2012
246
10
923
@everyone

You have to admit, until recently - the PC/Mac industry is basically video driven. I was commenting on another site and I told one of the members I couldn't see spending more than $120 for a video card - and will generally stay under $100. I'd run it into the ground until it died, as long as it produces 1080p ... I'm fine. He thought I was crazy - he could see paying $500 and above for video but chicken feed for audio. Some PC people have video cards that cost over $2k!!!! These are usually avid gamers. It's who do you love in this world. With computers audio has played second fiddle to video forever. I hope those days are about to change. ;) I know audio will never exceed video's importance in computing - but let it get equal time :D
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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Snohomish, WA
www.pugetsoundstudios.com
These are usually avid gamers. It's who do you love in this world. With computers audio has played second fiddle to video forever. I hope those days are about to change. ;) I know audio will never exceed video's importance in computing - but let it get equal time :D

Ain't gonna happen. I do audio for games and just like it is in the mastering business, all the budget goes to video. In the early days, I only got 12 bits to work with on some audio!! It's still second fiddle and will always be.
 

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