Sublime Sound

Calle_jr

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2015
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Here is a measurement of my room/system's frequency response taken at the listening
Is that with or without the subs?
Regardless of difference between sources, it's of course the depth and width of the room causing the 40Hz resonance. Why not try to "hide" a couple of helmholtz coffins? Just to lower say 4-5dB in the whole reverberation would make the problem inaudible.

I really like the Magicos ever since an audition with Behold electronics some years ago. As you say, they are very responsive to electronics and that choice is dependant on the dealership. Here in Europe, it has sometimes been quite unfortunate since they have been matched with wrong amps.
 

Calle_jr

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May 24, 2015
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It is just a guess, but I think the audible problem is the combination of the 40Hz peak with the 55Hz dip.
Two guys (who are probably registered here) had exactly this situation in a room, and magically solved it with helmholtz alone. They just tuned the ports to cancel both the peak and the dip by some (let me call it) phase shift correction in the room response.
I could try to invite them here if you don't mind. It is anyhow interesting in a general way, since most rooms have this situation more or less.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Is that with or without the subs?
Regardless of difference between sources, it's of course the depth and width of the room causing the 40Hz resonance. Why not try to "hide" a couple of helmholtz coffins? Just to lower say 4-5dB in the whole reverberation would make the problem inaudible.

I really like the Magicos ever since an audition with Behold electronics some years ago. As you say, they are very responsive to electronics and that choice is dependant on the dealership. Here in Europe, it has sometimes been quite unfortunate since they have been matched with wrong amps.

I do not own sub woofers. I tried subs and they interfered with the clarity of the midrange so I sold them. These measurements are with the Mini IIs only. It is impressive though that there is response to the mid 20s. Yes, it is probably the shape of the room, but the sound is quite good nevertheless. There is only so much I can do with the aesthetics of this room. Perhaps I could hide a helmholtz coffin behind the couch. I'll do some investigation. Thank you for the suggestion, though at the moment, it may be a solution in need of a real problem.

Regarding electronics and Magico, I find Pass Labs is a great combination. They are very transparent speakers and require great electronics to sound their best.
 

Calle_jr

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May 24, 2015
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I hope to get to hear some Magicos with Pass sometime.
I have never seen that in Europe, but I can really imagine it's great.
 

Mctwins

Member
Feb 1, 2013
38
6
8
Thanks for the comments Calle-jr. You can see how substantial the room resonance is at 40 Hz. It seems slightly larger relative to the rest of the response in digital recording than in analog.

Here is a measurement of my room/system's frequency response taken at the listening seat while playing pink noise through from an LP. Both channels are summed. The different colors correspond to different cartridge loading settings.

View attachment 21826

And this is the same taken while playing pink noise through a digital file. This shows the left and right channels separately.

View attachment 21827

Hallo!

It seems that those tubetraps dosen't work, and the question is why?? Have you talk to the representative for those tubestraps. My advice is to sell these tubestraps and get Varitunes instead. You seem to have some place between the fireplace to put some Varitunes there.

Here is a link how I fixed my freq response...https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8325451-post114.html
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Hello Mctwins. I just looked up Varitunes. They are a good looking product. Thank you for the suggestion. I will investigate these a bit further. No, I have not contacted ASC to discuss the tubetraps. The measurements I posted are fairly recent and I don't fully understand how to interpret them. I do not feel an urgency as I am really enjoying the sound of my system, but I am always willing to learn more and improve the sound. A smoother frequency response would be better, I am sure.
 

Mctwins

Member
Feb 1, 2013
38
6
8
Hello Mctwins. I just looked up Varitunes. They are a good looking product. Thank you for the suggestion. I will investigate these a bit further. No, I have not contacted ASC to discuss the tubetraps. The measurements I posted are fairly recent and I don't fully understand how to interpret them. I do not feel an urgency as I am really enjoying the sound of my system, but I am always willing to learn more and improve the sound. A smoother frequency response would be better, I am sure.

Hallo!

I understand, more measurement schould be done to evaluate. If you can remove the tubetraps out of the room and put them back in and measure with and without them. Keep the mic at your LP without moving the mic. The tubetraps can't be so heavy:)
 

andrew_stenhouse

New Member
Oct 26, 2015
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Sydney, Australia
Dear Peter
I just caught up on your system thread: well, I must say how lovely you have your system looking, and what a splendid home you have. I am quite jealous, living in an apartment in a very large city has its limitations, not least on one's hi fi habit.

I love vinyl, and always enjoy my various friend's vinyl systems.

Your SME etc looks the cat's pajama's. Wonderfully made and terrific sounding analogue rigs in my opinion - I heard the 20/2 and loved it - subterranean bass as I recall. I should love to hear some Moravec through your system.

Well done, and thank you so much for sharing.
 
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PeterA

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I have been experimenting lately with room acoustics. Three years ago, Jim Smith suggested that I cover my fireplace with a heavy furniture blanket. The idea was that this would perhaps lessen the effect of this large object just behind and between my speakers. He thought there might be an increase in the sense of depth to the soundstage. Well, a couple of weeks ago, I finally got around to testing his suggestion. The results have been positive. There is a slight increase in the perception of depth, but more importantly, resolution has improved. Timbre is more accurate. And the sense of presence has improved. Overall, music sounds more natural and is more enjoyable. Thanks for the tip, Jim.

Here is a rather dark photograph showing the change. My wife is a saint for continuing to put up with my alterations to our living room in the name of better sound. I remove the blanket when we entertain guests in the living room. I think this will be a temporary solution. I plan to contact ASC to discuss more permanent, but removable, plugs for the fireplace opening and perhaps some panels for the sides of the fireplace enclosure.

Al M. was recently here to listen and judge the effect of this change.

IMG_1581.JPG
 
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Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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Yesterday I was again invited by Peter to listen to his system, after he had made the acoustic improvement to his room that he just described. He also now demagnetizes his records; apparently the carbon used to blacken the vinyl contains traces of metal which, when magnetized, can interfere with the performance of the cartridge (something that has been described in audio publications).

While listening to some music we established that the blanket helped to increase perceived detail and resolution, which apparently had been blurred by reflections around the fireplace. I had experienced something similar with respect to timbral detail when installing ASC window plugs to cover the windows in my room (see my system thread, link in signature). Spatial depth was also improved in Peter's new acoustic setting. While so far on that evening the system had sounded good to very good on the recordings that we listened to, nothing prepared me for what would come next.

Peter played the recording of Dutilleux's cello concerto with Rostropovich as soloist on an EMI LP; Serge Baudo conducts the Orchestre de Paris. The concerto was written for Rostropovich by the composer. Apparently this recording (the other side features Lutoslawski's also great cello concerto, written for Rostropovich by that composer as well) is considered to have one of the best sounds, or the best sound, of cello that you will ever hear on a recording. I had heard the recording before at Peter's place, then also with the My Sonic Labs cartridge, and had been impressed, but this time the reproduction was simply on another level.

The instrument had an incredible presence, as if it was playing right in front of you, and this presence seemed entirely transparent -- it was right there, and seemed not even slightly veiled through the recording/playback chain. The resonances of the wooden body of the cello were portrayed with an unbelievable realism, down to the low frequencies (no sub required), and the rosiny string tone was strikingly reminiscent of some live performances with cello solo that I have heard. The reproduction was so faithful to the immense detail of string tone heard from an actual cello that it was simply stunning -- the timbral resolution was of the highest order, and transients were effortlessly fast. It was breathtaking just how realistically the system portrayed the sheer physical energy and heft of an actual cello playing just a dozen or so feet away from you, and the plucking of the strings heard on many occasions through the piece had an enormous dynamic 'jump factor' and physically palpable force that had to be heard to be believed. There was an unbroken continuum of musical energy from the low to the high register of the cello. The drama of the reproduction was spellbinding. It was simply astonishing how the speakers could so faithfully portray the hefty physical excursions and wooden resonances of the instrument while fully and completely keeping their composure, without adding any perceived colorations. Overall, the sound was as alive as I have ever experienced from a stereo system.

The orchestral sound had appropriate bite, and physical force as well; some of the transients on metallic instruments of lower register (featuring tubes or plates I assume) had an enormous energy. The orchestral strings play in this piece often with a mysterious tone that was portrayed with great detail and air. Overall, the dichotomy of mystery and turbulent drama in this cello concerto was highlighted more than I had heard before. The orchestral sound projected very well into the room and convincingly filled it acoustically; the surges of the orchestra were expansive and dramatic. The tense energy, drama and vividness of the orchestral sound almost made me forget that there were obvious physical limitations to the sheer scale of sound compared to a real orchestra playing.

While the cello sound was incredibly realistic in its physical energy and drama, as well as the detail of string sound and the wooden resonances, did the entire sound of the recording create a fully realistic context? Not quite. The cello obviously was close-miked, and portrayed as if you were sitting very close to the instrument in a rather small venue. You could never sit so close to the solo cello in a real performance with a large orchestra in a large hall unless you were actually on stage -- you had the 'best seat' 'that does not exist in a real-world situation. So the recording purposefully creates an alternate reality, but one that seems so believable nonetheless. And the reproduction of that alternate reality was simply breathtaking. The recording reminds me of an episode that, if I remember correctly, went as follows. Herbert von Karajan was once asked if attending a live performance was not better than a recording, and the famous conductor responded, "For whom?".

All in all, on this recording through Peter's system I experienced the most realistic, most convincing portrayal of a close-up solo string instrument on any system. Ever.

While Peter's system in many instances is capable of performance on a very high level, from an overall perspective it is not the best system I have heard. Yet regardless, on this particular recording it delivered the single most impressive audio performance that I have ever heard from any system.

In some sense, after I had left Peter's house I felt as if I just had witnessed a great live performance with a legendary cellist. But I had just been in a not so big house, rather than in a large venue where such a cello concerto would be performed. And the actual performance that I had just heard had been four decades ago. Surreal.
 
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MadFloyd

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Wow, great report, Al! I'm going to have to invite myself over to Peter's to hear this recording!

That's the one thing about audio systems, when the magic is there it makes up for all the times it's not...
 

ack

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While Peter's system in many instances is capable of performance on a very high level, from an overall perspective it is not the best system I have heard.

I don't think it really matters.

In some sense, after I had left Peter's house I felt as if I just had witnessed a great live performance with a legendary cellist.

This is what matters. Well done Peter! Indeed his system does small scale music exceptionally well. I need to get that recording.
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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I don't think it really matters.

Indeed, it doesn't. Yet I felt compelled to give some context for what I was about to say in the sentence that followed.

My own system isn't the best that I have heard either, and it doesn't really matter as well. What does matter is the tremendous enjoyment and involvement with the music that it gives me. And yes, on some recordings it has the ability to make my jaw drop, too.

Yet solo string instruments are notoriously tough to reproduce on any kind of system. And what Peter's system did on that recording, in particular with rendering the solo cello in such a realistic and powerful manner, was so extraordinary that it defied belief, in my view.

This is what matters. Well done Peter! Indeed his system does small scale music exceptionally well. I need to get that recording.

The music is quite adventurous, but just amazing. The Lutoslawski cello concerto on the other LP side, which I have heard as well but not yet from this particular recording, is one hell of a wild ride.
 
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Jim Smith

Industry Expert
Dec 14, 2012
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Great report! I usually add the caveat that to insure long term satisfaction, it's a good idea to remove the "treatment" when not listening. Domestic "harmony" serves musical engagement, IMO. :)
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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In some sense, after I had left Peter's house I felt as if I just had witnessed a great live performance with a legendary cellist. But I had just been in a not so big house, rather than in a large venue where such a cello concerto would be performed. And the actual performance that I had just heard had been four decades ago. Surreal.

Yes it was. Thank you Al for the very kind words and wonderful description of the sound of the music through my system on that particular evening. Your writing conveys your observations very clearly and it is a joy to read such a well written report. It is very rewarding when reproduced sound in ones's home can produce the emotional response that Al experienced the other evening at my house and to share these kinds of listening sessions with friends.

I think this listening session demonstrates just how significant room acoustics and the quality of a recording are to the overall emotional impact and enjoyment of an audio system. Here is the album:

IMG_1583.jpg

IMG_1585.jpg
 

PeterA

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After quite some time and much anticipation, my good friend, neighbor and audio buddy agreed to bring over his new turntable to try out in my system. It is a Technics SP10 Mk3, refurbished and in an Albert Porter Panzerholtz plinth. He has the same SME V-12 tonearm and AirTight Supreme cartridge that I own. It is placed on my Vibraplane and so in the same location that my turntable is usually. We plan to do some direct comparisons with my SME Model 30/12 over the next few days.

It is so exciting and quite unusual to be able to audition a different turntable with the same cartridge and tonearm in one's own system. Here are some photos of this 110 lb. beauty.

DSC_4517.jpg

DSC_4516.jpg
 

Barry2013

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Oct 12, 2013
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After quite some time and much anticipation, my good friend, neighbor and audio buddy agreed to bring over his new turntable to try out in my system. It is a Technics SP10 Mk3, refurbished and in an Albert Porter Panzerholtz plinth. He has the same SME V-12 tonearm and AirTight Supreme cartridge that I own. It is placed on my Vibraplane and so in the same location that my turntable is usually. We plan to do some direct comparisons with my SME Model 30/12 over the next few days.

It is so exciting and quite unusual to be able to audition a different turntable with the same cartridge and tonearm in one's own system. Here are some photos of this 110 lb. beauty.

View attachment 26166

View attachment 26167

It looks stunning.
Can't wait to here how it sounds
 

BruceD

VIP/Donor
Dec 13, 2013
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After quite some time and much anticipation, my good friend, neighbor and audio buddy agreed to bring over his new turntable to try out in my system. It is a Technics SP10 Mk3, refurbished and in an Albert Porter Panzerholtz plinth. He has the same SME V-12 tonearm and AirTight Supreme cartridge that I own. It is placed on my Vibraplane and so in the same location that my turntable is usually. We plan to do some direct comparisons with my SME Model 30/12 over the next few days.

It is so exciting and quite unusual to be able to audition a different turntable with the same cartridge and tonearm in one's own system. Here are some photos of this 110 lb. beauty.

WoW !--looks great eager to hear the comments/etc--

Does the TT have the Fabled Richard Krebs Mods I wonder?

BruceD
 

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