New Vertere Table

ack · Dec 6, 2013

How would you use a stethoscope to test for bearing noise? If you mean attach it to the base, I can detect no noise with either the platter spinning or not (with no belt attached in either case). What would be more interesting is to be able to somehow attach the stethoscope to the spinning platter. Motor noise - and the effectiveness of my own isolation solution - is pretty straight forward: I can hear it when attaching the steth to the motor itself, and nowhere else; same is true with the cartridge resting on the still platter and the preamp gain at max - no motor noise from the speakers.

TBone · Dec 6, 2013

ack said:
How would you use a stethoscope to test for bearing noise?

Depends on the specific turntable, (and the steth). The way I test requires full access to the inner workings, so some prep is involved before-hand (I've created "jigs" to assist me). I place the steth directly on the bearing and/or bearing assembly, or even an adjacent direct-coupled structure such as a sub-plinth - during play.

same is true with the cartridge resting on the still platter and the preamp gain at max - no motor noise from the speakers.

I've never considered this method that useful.

tb1

ack · Dec 6, 2013

TBone said:
Depends on the specific turntable, (and the steth). The way I test requires full access to the inner workings, so some prep is involved before-hand (I've created "jigs" to assist me). I place the steth directly on the bearing and/or bearing assembly, or even an adjacent direct-coupled structure such as a sub-plinth - during play.

I guess I do have access to the bearing from underneath the base - will try that; or the bearing itself through a half-inch clearance between the platter and the base, and I can stick a metal piece between it and the stethoscope. Thanks.

TBone · Dec 6, 2013

ack, that little "trick" you did with the lube just at or above ball level, can often be the key to getting a bearing dead quiet. It requires a very precise amount of lube to get just right, often time consuming. It remains bearing specific, and certainly, it goes against the grain of the advice of only applying 1 or 2 drops of oil. I also use a variety of non sulfur, non-detergent based oils, often mixed, depending on the bearing (and amount of viscous drag I wish to introduce).

And a good seth requires only slight pressure to work best, too much pressure limits the amount of noise one can hear. because you shouldn't over-compress the diaphragm.

anyway, good luck.

ack · Dec 6, 2013

Thanks for the advice. Yes, it can be time consuming to experimentally figure out the right amount of lube, hence the math; with the VPI's bearing, all you have to calculate is a cylinder's volume, minus half a sphere's volume (the part of the exposed bearing's ball), plus the extra bit of lube you want for excess. The real pain is in measuring accurately. I do feel the bearing is exceptionally quiet.

microstrip · Dec 6, 2013

Checking for noise in turntables is not easy, as sometimes in order to create a noiseless structure you create reflective paths for energy that migrates to the places where it will do maximal harm. For example, if you analyze the output of the cartridge playing a blank groove with a spectrometer and simultaneously the noise of the motor case while adjusting voltage and phase of synchronous motor you will probably find that the cleanest output of the cartridge does not come from the lower noise setting of the motor. Sometimes vibration can just mean that this energy is being dissipated away of the LP - needle path! The Roksan turntable motor is just one case of this type of drive - it was built to move with some freedom.

Anyway, I would not mind getting a Thorens Rumpel - Messkoppler :

TBone · Dec 6, 2013

microstrip said:
Checking for noise in turntables is not easy, as sometimes in order to create a noiseless structure you create reflective paths for energy that migrates to the places where it will do maximal harm. For example, if you analyze the output of the cartridge playing a blank groove with a spectrometer and simultaneously the noise of the motor case while adjusting voltage and phase of synchronous motor you will probably find that the cleanest output of the cartridge does not come from the lower noise setting of the motor. Sometimes vibration can just mean that this energy is being dissipated away of the LP - needle path! The Roksan turntable motor is just one case of this type of drive - it was built to move with some freedom.

True; about creating reflective paths, but those can often be heard within the entire structure of the table. Early Rega's were designed w/loose hanging motor in order to isolate a very noisy motor, and yet, they suffered terribly from noise related issues. Not only that, they were brutal at maintaining correct speed. Loose motor / mounts also invite timing errors. Both motor mounts & suspension systems can act as dissipating/damping/draining structures if required, it's all in the implementation. And lets not forget that noisy motors tend to get noisier over time, often MUCH noisier. I've also found some motors require a certain RPM and/or load to remain relatively quiet, while others strain based on adding RPM/load. Personally, I prefer a turntable w/motor that's designed to run very quietly at proper speed/load ... especially if I'm paying these kind of prices ...

tb1

wizard · Dec 20, 2013

View attachment 12998

XV-1 · Dec 20, 2013

I predict this table will be as popular as this one

garylkoh · Aug 5, 2014

Alan Sircom reviews the Vertere turntable and tonearm.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/sneak-peak-vertere-rg-1-turntable-and-sg-1-tonearm/

Seems those of us in the US have to wait a month before we can read the full review. UK subscribers have gotten it already........

Here's the HiFi+ review official copyright paid distribution copy - please don't ban me

Ron Resnick · May 10, 2015

I think a comparison between the RG-1 with the Reference tonearm and the Basis inspiration with the Superarm 9 would be very interesting. Each pair collectively has roughly the same list price, so they compete directly.

Foot Tapper · Oct 3, 2015

Hi Folks! A beginner here with a first post on What's Best Forum.
I'm not sure when it was or will be launched in the USA, but I have just switched turntable from a Roksan Xerxes 20+ with upgrade plinth and Artemiz 2 arm to Vertere's new baby, the MG-1 with SG-1 tonearm. So, here I sit, working my way through a backlog of circa 20 new albums that have been waiting for a turntable to play them.

After spending 6 years with a Xerxes, how does it sound?
I think that it's really very good indeed. The Xerxes 20+ was certainly no slouch, yet in comparison, music has such life and vitality.

It seems somehow inadequate to talk in hifi terms such as resolution, timing, pitch stability, transparency, imaging and dynamics.
To these ears, the MG-1 is a step or two on from the maxed out Xerxes in all these respects, yet that doesn't seem to matter.
What does matter is that music simply sounds more real and convincing.

It's as though I went to the record store and ordered new recordings of albums that I love, except that this time, all the musicians woke up in a good mood and decided to play better and more together than they ever managed before.

A couple of pictures of the new baby. First the SG-1 tonearm

And the MG-1 turntable that it rests on:

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 4, 2015

^^^^ Gorgeous! And congratulations!

Question: Do you use a weight or clamp? Or is this not recommended?

spiritofmusic · Oct 4, 2015

Gosh, that design looks identical to the Xerxes X I ran 18 years ago, w/the nested plinth principle.
Other than the change from mdf to acrylic, just what is the difference, and what justifies the massive price differential btwn them?

Foot Tapper · Oct 4, 2015

Thanks Johnny.
I'm not sure that I follow you.
The counterweight at the back is used to balance the weight of the cartridge (yes, even a heavy one like a DV XV-1S), leaving the movable ring on the arm tube to provide the tracking weight.
The black pillar this side of the main arm bearing assembly clamps the arm in place when not in use.

I hope that this answers your question. If not, please clarify and I'll have another go.

The Artemiz is a great arm but the SG-1 does move the game on a bit, at least to these (and my dealer's) ears.
A number of UK based Roksan owners (of TMS and Xerxes turntables) have switched to Vertere motor controllers and tonearms, fitting them on to their Roksan turntables.
It's not so much a case of changing companies, as having faith and continued loyalty to Touraj, who founded Vertere and is no longer involved with Roksan

Hope this helps, FT

Foot Tapper · Oct 4, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Gosh, that design looks identical to the Xerxes X I ran 18 years ago, w/the nested plinth principle.
Other than the change from mdf to acrylic, just what is the difference, and what justifies the massive price differential btwn them?

Hi Spiritofmusic,
Well, if it reminds you of a Xerxes 10, it reminds me even more of the Xerxes 20+ that it has just replaced!
As far as I can see, the multi-layered plinth system is based on the same principles as those of the Xerxes. The differences lie in the execution.
The motor has twice the number of poles, for reduced torque ripple. The motor controller is more sophisticated and is a leap forwards.
The main bearing is different, as are the suspension blobs.
MDF has given way to acrylic for the plinth layers.
The feet are also different. etc.

So, does it sound like a Xerxes? Well to me it certainly does, just one with even more life, vitality, sense of rhythm, musical believability and all the hi-fi stuff as well.
It's like a super Xerxes.

Oh, and the cables are expensive. Very. But apparently "good value" in the parallel universe that is the world of audiophile cables.

Best regards, FT

Johnny Vinyl · Oct 4, 2015

Foot Tapper said:
Thanks Johnny.
I'm not sure that I follow you.
The counterweight at the back is used to balance the weight of the cartridge (yes, even a heavy one like a DV XV-1S), leaving the movable ring on the arm tube to provide the tracking weight.
The black pillar this side of the main arm bearing assembly clamps the arm in place when not in use.

I hope that this answers your question. If not, please clarify and I'll have another go.

The Artemiz is a great arm but the SG-1 does move the game on a bit, at least to these (and my dealer's) ears.
A number of UK based Roksan owners (of TMS and Xerxes turntables) have switched to Vertere motor controllers and tonearms, fitting them on to their Roksan turntables.
It's not so much a case of changing companies, as having faith and continued loyalty to Touraj, who founded Vertere and is no longer involved with Roksan

Hope this helps, FT

Hello FT,

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant a weight or clamp to hold records in place.

Foot Tapper · Oct 4, 2015

Hello Johnny
Neither. The centre pin that the record locates on to is a cylindrical cap that is placed on to the real spindle first, then removed once the record is in place.
The principle is the same as implemented on other Vertere and Roksan turntables.
As I understand it, Touraj doesn't want any main bearing micro vibrations to feed directly into the vinyl record, so the record is deliberately decoupled from the centre spindle in use.
So the record simply sits on the top of the platter.

One incidental benefit of this design philosophy is that the user can even centre records on the platter when the record company finds it too difficult to press the LP centrally around the "centre" hole - disturbingly, an increasing phenomenon these days with new vinyl.

Best regards, FT

spiritofmusic · Oct 4, 2015

FT, this is an interesting example re taking a well-established design, and maxxing it to the hilt w/advances in materials and tolerances, as opposed to a totally new blank sheet approach.
Any idea how the TMS fits into this heirarchy?
For me, too much in the Roksan/Xerxes presentation didn't work for me, and I'm down a totally different path now.
But having met Touraj a few times, I can attest to his excellence as an engineer, and person.

Ron Resnick · Oct 5, 2015

Johnny Vinyl said:
Question: Do you use a weight or clamp? Or is this not recommended?

Touraj told me that he does not believe in clamping a record down to the platter or in using a vacuum to suck the vinyl onto the platter. He believes that flattening the record in any way stresses the vinyl, dampens harmonics and changes the sound with the result that all records, on a particular record player which uses a clamp or vacuum hold-down, have a slightly homogenized sound and an identifiable sonic “signature.”

I asked Touraj what about “machining a platter to be as close to perfectly flat as possible”? Touraj replied that even if a platter were machined perfectly flat, at the microscopic level there are hills and valleys between the vinyl and the platter which result in an actual contact area between the vinyl and the platter of only 6% to 7% of the surface area of the record. We went around and around on this for a while, and I still do not understand why the surface contact area between the vinyl and the platter would be only 6% to 7%. But that is Touraj’s firm view as an engineering matter.

As a result of this view, Touraj’s design philosophy is to create a tonearm which is extremely adept at adjusting to undulations on the record. This is why the counterweight on his Reference tonearm is designed to swing back and forth as the headshell goes up and down.

I asked Touraj why he disagrees with most other major turntable designers who believe in using either a record clamp (including Clearaudio and VPI) or vacuum hold-down (including Andy Payor, A.J. Conti and Lloyd Walker). He said he does not know why these other designers believe in making the vinyl “one” with the platter. Touraj reiterated that "clamping the record to the platter allows motor noise and other internal vibrations to be transmitted to the vinyl surface which is being read by the stylus." He said the tonearm’s job is to ride whatever the vinyl presents naturally. He does not believe in flattening the LP to make easier the job of the tonearm.

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