What is the benefit of very expensive DACs?

morricab

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Raid 1 ? Is that real raid like mirror ? If yes lose it lol
Also get a cheap LPS for it. It helps but know this as most don’t Linux is less dependent on clean power
I don’t know why but as I build severs both windows and Linux it’s far less important on Linux
Also get yourself an emo systems network iso well worth the 125’it costs

Funny because I have Bluesound Vault streamer/NAS that runs a proprietary linux based OS that benefitted amazingly by going to battery power.
 

Legolas

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I have some experience with the DAC, it is organic sounding and flows well. Not super airy on top but this is true of a lot of NOS DACs. Nice tone through the mids. Not ultra resolution but you don't really feel you miss detail per se. I believe it is using the AD1865N DAC chip like AN UK and Aries Cerat (but they use 16-32 of them depending on the version).

I am not sure the Kondo uses the AD1865. Anyway, regardless what it uses, it is a bit boring TBH. My buddy in Italy had it after I bought his Audio Note DAC 5, he sold in a few months, got the La Scala, sold that, and bought back my Audio Note DAC 5, which I was ok about selling because I had the monster Kassandra arriving. Now we are talking...... blew my socks off..
 
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allhifi

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I'll tell you ...

I heard a M2 Vaughan. Sounds very good, not as good as the best analog gear but anyhow.

Now my Question: What is the benefit of a DAC lets say for over 20k? The last 5% or less or just the name?

I am using a Windows 8 with Foobar and Jplay (please do not start any discussion). I do not think that JRiver 19 is better.

Josef

In Germany it is impossible to get one of the big DACs for testing

(RE: What is the benefit of very expensive DAC´s?)

Profit. And, bragging rights.

pj
 

Ken Newton

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The conventional wisdom is they sound better (no big surprises here). The question is how much better and at what price difference, and how fast is price performance improving.

I was slightly disheartened to read the Stereophile review of the new $3500 Marantz NA11-S1 network streamer / DAC, and the reviewer commenting he was hard pressed to hear ANY difference between it and the $43,000 MSB stack. While this observation should delight the general audiophile population, it inevitably has the small population of uber expensive DAC owners (of which I am one) second guessing the wisdom of their investment.

Those same questions can be applied to any audio component. First, there's the law of diminishing return regarding performance/price ratios. Incremental improvements in sound quality become exponentially more costly to obtain. Second, some folks simply do not percieve incremental improvements in sound past a certain level of quality. All like components simply sound the same to them. Some others, however, can perceive small differences, and, for those that perceive, appreciate differences, and can afford to purchase such components, those make sense.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Those same questions can be applied to any audio component. First, there's the law of diminishing return regarding performance/price ratios. Incremental improvements in sound quality become exponentially more costly to obtain. Second, some folks simply do not percieve incremental improvements in sound past a certain level of quality. All like components simply sound the same to them. Some others, however, can perceive small differences, and, for those that perceive, appreciate differences, and can afford to purchase such components, those make sense.

I just spent 2 days at RMAF. I listened to many different levels of digital, and many were what I would call 'good enough'......if not all sounding the same. but then there are a few which did stand out as at a higher level, and among those there was my favorite at an even higher level (no surprise). obviously there were no fully mature systems at RMAF so it's all a bit provisional in terms of perceptions, yet sources do seem to still align with our previous experiences mostly.

then I came home and late last night I heard my favorite dac in my own room optimized in pretty much every way; and that put a smile on my face. very expensive? sure. my RMAF perceptions did nothing to dissuade my enthusiasm for my choice.
 

allhifi

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" ...The conventional wisdom is they sound better (no big surprises here). The question is how much better and at what price difference, and how fast is price performance improving.

I was slightly disheartened to read the Stereophile review of the new $3500 Marantz NA11-S1 network streamer / DAC, and the reviewer commenting he was hard pressed to hear ANY difference between it and the $43,000 MSB stack. While this observation should delight the general audiophile population, it inevitably has the small population of uber expensive DAC owners (of which I am one) second guessing the wisdom of their investment."


Hmmm: Depends who wrote the article/review, and if there's any merit to it? I'm not sure why anyone who spent $43K on a DAC (preamp, power, loudspeakers or any other item priced that high) would question their purchase ?

Clearly, $43K (or even $20K used) is a substantial amount of coin. A perfect segue thus unfolds; start off with what you believe is a reasonable investment/price for hi-fi, then let anything more expensive prove its mettle/value/worth. Only when done in this order can the ultimate question of comparability be made -and/or make sense.

By by-passing the over-achieving lower-priced product, one risks spending huge coin on something that otherwise could have been used (on a multitude of items/products known) to elevate the entire listening experience.

pj
 
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Al M.

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By by-passing the over-achieving lower-priced product, one risks spending huge coin on something that otherwise could have been used (on a multitude of items/products known) to elevate the entire listening experience.

pj

Agreed. I have an overachiever DAC (Schiit Yggdrasil), and while there may be even better DACs, but for much more money, I would never have achieved the high resolution sound that I now have by buying any of those DACs rather than putting the money saved into the rest of my system, speakers, amp, cables etc. This does not mean that with another DAC it might not become better yet.

But overall system strategy is key. Put your money where it matters most.
 

microstrip

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" ...The conventional wisdom is they sound better (no big surprises here). The question is how much better and at what price difference, and how fast is price performance improving.

I was slightly disheartened to read the Stereophile review of the new $3500 Marantz NA11-S1 network streamer / DAC, and the reviewer commenting he was hard pressed to hear ANY difference between it and the $43,000 MSB stack. While this observation should delight the general audiophile population, it inevitably has the small population of uber expensive DAC owners (of which I am one) second guessing the wisdom of their investment."


Hmmm: Depends who wrote the article/review, and if there's any merit to it? I'm not sure why anyone who spent $43K on a DAC (preamp, power, loudspeakers or any other item priced that high) would question their purchase ?

Clearly, $43K (or even $20K used) is a substantial amount of coin. A perfect segue thus unfolds; start off with what you believe is a reasonable investment/price for hi-fi, then let anything more expensive prove its mettle/value/worth. Only when done in this order can the ultimate question of comparability be made -and/or make sense.

By by-passing the over-achieving lower-priced product, one risks spending huge coin on something that otherwise could have been used (on a multitude of items/products known) to elevate the entire listening experience.

pj

Yes, quoting a 2013 old post of without putting a link to the Stereophile review does not allow us to situate the comment and understand exactly what was meant by it. Or is the intention just remarking that some reviewers always seem to think that other audiophiles share their anguishes? :D
 

Mike Lavigne

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Agreed. I have an overachiever DAC (Schiit Yggdrasil), and while there may be even better DACs, but for much more money, I would never have achieved the high resolution sound that I now have by buying any of those DACs rather than putting the money saved into the rest of my system, speakers, amp, cables etc. This does not mean that with another DAC it might not become better yet.

But overall system strategy is key. Put your money where it matters most.

Al,

I agree completely with your comments.

every dac buying decision must be viewed in a system building context. and I can see your choice fits your situation.

the rub is trying to apply a cost basis equally in all system building contexts.

there are 2 different questions. (1) do some expensive dacs sound better than less expensive choices? sure.

and (2) do some expensive dacs sound enough better to justify the cost difference? unanswerable in a general sense.

we are left to revert back to the whole 'system context' point you made. put YOUR money where it matters most.
 

allhifi

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Expertly (and sensibly) spoken !

If you are unaware, or have not experienced a premium (i.e. quality) AC Re-generator powering your digital ADC/Streamer/CDP components, you are in for a magical digital treat -like no other !

The link reviews the PS P-5; reviewer's words speak to exactly was I (my customers and casual listeners ) experienced when we first evaluated the P-300 (Power-plant) some fifteen years ago. (A match made in Digital Heaven -it is that dramatic an improvement )

https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ps-audio-p5-power-plant/

pj
 

Al M.

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Al,

I agree completely with your comments.

every dac buying decision must be vieuwed in a system building context. and I can see your choice fits your situation.

the rub is trying to apply a cost basis equally in all system building contexts.

there are 2 different questions. (1) do some expensive dacs sound better than less expensive choices? sure.

and (2) do some expensive dacs sound enough better to justify the cost difference? unanswerable in a general sense.

we are left to revert back to the whole 'system context' point you made. put YOUR money where it matters most.

Mike,

yes, in the context of your more or less no-holds-barred system approach the DAC choice you made seems to make perfect sense. In my system a better DAC probably would also make sense -- if I wanted to spend substantially more money than I already did. Yet the question then becomes how does the price/value ratio fit with respect to the rest of my system. For some DAC choices the fit would seem to be better than for others.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Expertly (and sensibly) spoken !

If you are unaware, or have not experienced a premium (i.e. quality) AC Re-generator powering your digital ADC/Streamer/CDP components, you are in for a magical digital treat -like no other !

The link reviews the PS P-5; reviewer's words speak to exactly was I (my customers and casual listeners ) experienced when we first evaluated the P-300 (Power-plant) some fifteen years ago. (A match made in Digital Heaven -it is that dramatic an improvement )

https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/ps-audio-p5-power-plant/

pj

you mean like this.

there are different levels of power regeneration. Equi=tech is a big boy 'whole system' power regen unit.

agree this is a game changer, and it's also important to have a filter (to reduce/eliminate back fill from digital noise) on the circuits dealing with digital or class d amplification. I have three such circuits out of 10 for the Equi=tech.
 
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microstrip

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Al,

I agree completely with your comments.

every dac buying decision must be viewed in a system building context. and I can see your choice fits your situation.

the rub is trying to apply a cost basis equally in all system building contexts.

there are 2 different questions. (1) do some expensive dacs sound better than less expensive choices? sure.

and (2) do some expensive dacs sound enough better to justify the cost difference? unanswerable in a general sense.

we are left to revert back to the whole 'system context' point you made. put YOUR money where it matters most.

Mike,

In general when we write some in a high-end statement its validity becomes a question of perspective - I would say your second statement is as true as the first.

And put YOUR money where it matters most.[/QUOTE] should be more explicit : put YOUR money where it you believe it matters most.[/QUOTE] . Remember all our choices are overachievers - otherwise we would not have picked them! :D
 

microstrip

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you mean like this.

there are different levels of power regeneration. Equi=tech is a big boy 'whole system' power regen unit.

agree this is a game changer, and it's also important to have a filter (to reduce/eliminate back fill from digital noise) on the circuits dealing with digital or class d amplification. I have three such circuits out of 10 for the Equi=tech.

For clarification I would not consider Equi=tech as a power regenerator - IMHO a power regenerator creates an AC mains waveform from DC. Transformers are not regenerators. A general term to encompass most devices should probably be power corrector .
 

allhifi

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Clarification/correction: (RE: " ...there are different levels of power regeneration. Equi=tech is a big boy 'whole system' power regen unit."

There are various methods of AC "cleansing"; Equitech is NOT an example of AC Re-Gen but rather a fine manufacturer of Balanced/ Symmetrical Power Units.

For source/digital components, I believe AC Regen. the better proposition.

pj
 

microstrip

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(...) For source/digital components, I believe AC Regen. the better proposition.

pj

IMHO each case is a different case. For example, DCS generally advises against the use of power regenerators with their systems. But perhaps if our mains has some specific distortions or noise a regenerator can give good results. I got good results using a PSAudio P10 with Devialet.

BTW, we should remember that some people also consider that the use of isolators (pneumatic or active) is mandatory in digital components.
 

allhifi

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Hi ms: For some strange reason, some company's (including Bryston, Canada) eschewed power 'conditioner's' (for decades) to be used with their power amps -yet refused to elaborate.

But today (and over the past ten years I'd guess) Bryston not only recommends Isolation Transformer conditioner's, but has an entire line of them -with their name slapped on the chassis.

The reason is clear; lower, and lower AC line impedance is very desirable for equipment, particularly p-amps. Keep in mind, Bryston's "conditioner's" are simple Isolation Transformers -NOT operated/designed for Balanced/Symmetrical operation.
( The USA's EQui=tech appear the only (strong) Balanced/Symmetrical AC Power supply's.)

I wish I had more experience with today's digital hi-fi used with today's AC-Regen's, but by reading more up-to-date reviews tells me the astounding improvement with digital powered by a quality AC-Regen., remains the same today - a considerable, remarkable enhancement to SQ.

In any case, when you state: " ....But perhaps if our mains has some specific distortions ...".

Let's be clear; we ALL have a bewildering array of AC-line distortions -if being powered by the 'Grid'.
To believe otherwise, is unwise.

pj
 
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microstrip

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Hi ms: For some strange reason, some company's (including Bryston, Canada) eschewed power 'conditioner's' (for decades) to be used with their power amps -yet refused to elaborate.

But today (and over the past ten years I'd guess) Bryston not only recommends Isolation Transformer conditioner's, but has an entire line of them -with their name slapped on the chassis.

The reason is clear; lower, and lower AC line impedance is very desirable for equipment, particularly p-amps. Keep in mind, Bryston's "conditioner's" are simple Isolation Transformers -NOT operated/designed for Balanced/Symmetrical operation.
( The USA's EQui=tech appear the only (strong) Balanced/Symmetrical AC Power supply's.)

I wish I had more experience with today's digital hi-fi used with today's AC-Regen's, but by reading more up-to-date reviews tells me the astounding improvement with digital powered by a quality AC-Regen., remains the same today - a considerable, remarkable enhancement to SQ.

In any case, when you state: " ....But perhaps if our mains has some specific distortions ...".

Let's be clear; we ALL have a bewildering array of AC-line distortions -if being powered by the 'Grid'.
To believe otherwise, is unwise.

pj

Let's be clear - you can just speak for what you have read, but I have taken exhaustive measurements of my mains and carried many listening tests with many types of equipment, including several power conditioners. My opinions just refer this experience and my sound quality preferences. The mains line in my listening room has some distortions and noise, but they are no way bewildering. And something I have learned since long in this hobby is never write an ALL in capital letters in WBF posts or consider that other people opinions are unwise ... :D
 

allhifi

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Jun 19, 2016
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No need to be testy, ms. But since you bring it up, let's chat some more.

What "tests" have you done on your AC Mains ?

Listening impressions aside, AC Mains power wreaks havoc (I didn't wish to offend the sensitive with caps -lol) with low-level circuits/ amplification, particularly impacting digital gear -as listening sessions bear out.

And I will say it again because it's valid -and should never be under-appreciated; It's unwise to assume we have "great" AC (or it can't be bettered, because it can).

pj
 

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