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Thread: Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

  1. #1031
    Addicted to Best! sbo6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    I think you'll find the Herzan is icing on the cake.
    But you're better off sorting out the cake first.
    I cannot imagine a Herzan making up for poor choice of arm or cart, these need to be gotten right first.
    Then and only then, if you're happy w the overall sound but want to take things up a level, should you consider a Herzan.
    The comparison from cheaper tt/arm/cart on a Herzan v $12k pricier tt/arm/cart not on a Herzan is a false one, IMHO.
    Then again, my Stacore passive platform is so invaluable go my tt setup that I consider it part of the tt, and not a separate tweak.
    Why is it a false compare? While there may be many descriptors and complexity to describe and compare each purchase that doesn't negate the fact that, in the end it's simply cost benefit analysis.
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  2. #1032
    Addicted to Best! sbo6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    That becomes an interesting question. After the audition of my $2K Vibraplanes, it was an easy decision, under my amps, and turntable. Probably the same for some low to mid tier power cord. It becomes a much more interesting question when discussing expensive racks and active isolation. Some even ask the question about expensive ultra sonic RCMs.

    Another comparison is between a stereo amp on a Herzan versus two monoblocks for the same cost. One would have to audition the options or do a direct comparison to know for sure and I bet it would be very hard to generalize about outcomes for other scenarios.
    Exactly Peter. While it may be challenging to quantify the differences I'd wager unless your own very high $ equipment (assuming this yields high quality, resolution, etc.) the Herzan and likely other high $ active isolation loses the cost benefit challenge.

    Example #1: low $ - I have $14K budget, I spend $2K on an amp, preamp, phono stage, TT, cartridge, rack, speakers and all cables and $12K for a Herzan inserted under the TT. Now, I take the same budget ($14K) and spend $14K on the system (an extra $12K to spend) with no Herzan, which one do you think wins? Likely system w/o Herzan.

    Example #2: ultra high $ - I have $400K budget, I spend $382K on an amp, preamp, phono stage, TT, cartridge, rack, speakers and all cables and $12K for a Herzan inserted under the TT. Now, I take the same budget ($400K) and spend $400K on the system (an extra $12K to spend) with no Herzan, which one do you think wins? Possibly system with Herzan.

    The tipping point is the question IMO.
    3x20A circuits | PS Audio PPP | Music PC (DEQ, HQPlayer, Roon) | HDPLex LPSU -> UltraCap LPS-1 -> Sonore Ultrarendu D->D | Aqua Acoustic Quality Formula DAC | Purity Audio Silver Statement preamp | Wells Audio Innamorata amp (mid/tweet) | Musical Fidelity A3CR amp (woofers)| Usher BE20D speakers with GR Research upgrade | 2: JL Audio F113 subs | JPS Labs SC3 ICs + Aluminata/SC2 SCs | Stillpoints, BD cones | Custom birch rack | Fully treated + dedicated 2 channel room)

  3. #1033
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbo6 View Post
    Exactly Peter. While it may be challenging to quantify the differences I'd wager unless your own very high $ equipment (assuming this yields high quality, resolution, etc.) the Herzan and likely other high $ active isolation loses the cost benefit challenge.

    Example #1: low $ - I have $14K budget, I spend $2K on an amp, preamp, phono stage, TT, cartridge, rack, speakers and all cables and $12K for a Herzan inserted under the TT. Now, I take the same budget ($14K) and spend $14K on the system (an extra $12K to spend) with no Herzan, which one do you think wins? Likely system w/o Herzan.

    Example #2: ultra high $ - I have $400K budget, I spend $382K on an amp, preamp, phono stage, TT, cartridge, rack, speakers and all cables and $12K for a Herzan inserted under the TT. Now, I take the same budget ($400K) and spend $400K on the system (an extra $12K to spend) with no Herzan, which one do you think wins? Possibly system with Herzan.

    The tipping point is the question IMO.
    agree.

    in the context of $10k tt's and $4k tone arms a $10k Herzan does not fit.

    but get to $25k-$50k tt's, and compare them to the higher level above $75k tt's; now a $10k Herzan might take you further......or might not. but it's the context where it's definitely a question.......and higher mass and exotic suspension of those more spendy tt's might be bettered by active.

    and I would offer that adding the Taiko Tana level active can take one to an otherwise not attainable level in certain ways (but not all ways) regardless of price. there is no other tool that can do what it does. but there is much more to tt performance than resonance attenuation.

    and the more dynamic and full range a system is the more significant active can be....even musical genre can matter. lots of full range large orchestral will relate more value to active.

    so there is a system to system difference in ROI.
    Last edited by Mike Lavigne; 07-20-2018 at 04:15 PM.
    Wave Kin. NVS tt, AS-2000 ord. (2) Durand Telos (1-Sapphire) arms, CA Gold Stat, Ort Anna carts, -2- Studer A-820 RTR (1/4" + 1/2").*MSB Select II dac w/33 Femto clock + mono powerbases, SGM serv + (2x) 30 tb NAS. *darT NHB-18NS w/2 phonos, King-Cello. *dart 458 mono blocks. EA MM7. *Equi=tech 10WQ, (10) Abso Fid PC & (2) Evo Acou PC. *Evo Acou 12' TRSC and 8m + 1.25m 'zeel' ic's, *Tripoint Troy Sig + Elite, Entreq Sil Tel + Pos, *Herzan TS-140 & TS-150, Wave Kin. A10 U8's + 2NS, Adona GTX.

  4. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Taiko Audio View Post
    Hi David,

    I would associate "dead" with a lack of dynamics and liveliness, which is the opposite of what it brings to the "table". The reason we recommend buy before you try is that panzerholz "extends" the vibration reduction bandwidth of the tablestable. A big difference with most passive platforms is the tablestable actually acts and compensates vibrations of the component sitting on top. Some turntables use material resonances to "flavour" the sound. If you counteract on or damp these resonances you remove that "flavour".

    For example, adding resonances in the 125-500Hz range can add fullness or warmth to the sound. Adding resonances in the 500Hz to 2K range can increase apparent definition and bite. Above 2K you can add resonances to increase apparent presence, clarity, sparkle etc. but we're now into entering into the range where there's not enough physical airborne energy which can couple to the structural section of the turntable to significantly excite resonant nodes. You need a certain amount of energy to be able to move mass, the lower the frequency at an energy level the more mass it is able to "move". For a passive platform increasing mass is a good way to increase isolation bandwidth down in frequency range.

    Isolation is of course not equivalent to damping. You would call the tablestable and isolating device, but it isn't, it is dissipating vibrational energy by producing a counter force. By adding the panzerholz topplate we did not increase the isolation bandwidth but added damping to extend the isolation of the tablestable.

    The active correction is very effective up till around ~40Hz where it can attenuate vibrations up to ~50dB, performance then rolls off to around ~-6dB from around 150-200Hz at which point it's acting as a strictly passive isolating/damping device up till around 1KHz.

    The panzerholz is roughly doubling the total tablestable damping performance from ~150-1000Hz and extends the damping range to well over 2K.

    At this point it may be useful to explain why we're going through the trouble of using panzerholz. It's not being used much, I suspect, because it's a nightmare for machining tools, it eats CNC tools for breakfast and likes to have a few more before lunch too, literally! It's also very expensive and is usually build to order, the combination of which leads to low default stocks.

    The numbers of interest here are damping factor (actual damping), transmissibility (how well sound is transported through the material) and frequency (properties vary by frequency magnitude).

    For Panzerholz, the damping factor at 200Hz is ~0.7, the transmissibility is ~1.5, at 1000Hz the damping factor is ~0.9, transmissibility is ~1.

    Now lets compare this to some other materials, lower damping factor is lower damping, higher transmissibility is better transmissibility, listing 200Hz only:

    Wood:
    Walnut: DF 0.01, T 50
    Oak: DF 0.01, T 27
    Pine: DF 0.06, T 11
    MDF: DF 0.02, T 42
    Plyboard: DF 0.04, T 18
    Cork: DF 0.1, T 6

    Metal:
    Aluminium: DF 0.004, T 177
    Copper: DF 0.01, T 71
    Steel: DF 0.08, T 88
    Lead: DF 0.03, T 22

    Various commonly used material:
    Carbon Fibre: DF 0.06, T 12
    Marble: DF 0.01, T 80
    Slate: DF 0.02, T 42
    Rubber: DF 0.3, T 2.5
    Sorbothane: DF 0.2, T 4

    Just for fun:
    Vinyl record: DF 0.02, T 35
    Vinyl record on bare metal platform: DF 0.05, T 13
    Vinyl record on bare metal platform with platter mat: DF 0.12, T 6
    Vinyl record as above with record clamp: DF 0.1, T 7

    As you can see Panzerholz has some unique properties which make it very interesting for hifi applications. Unfortunately its not used much, the few companies I am aware of are Kaiser Acoustics, Lessloss, Clearaudio and us ofcourse!


    Disclaimer: I am not a native English speaker so I had to translate some technical Dutch terms into English, hopefully I got everything right.
    Hello Taiko Audio,

    despite of the good accoustical results of Panzerholz (and the hard way to work on the material):

    Have you ever tried to use the material "Richlite"? It is a mulitlayer pulp and phenolic resin and seems to have a good damping factor, too. Maybe similar to Panzerholz. And is maybe easier to machine.

    redandgold

  5. #1035
    Addicted to Best! sbo6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    agree.

    in the context of $10k tt's and $4k tone arms a $10k Herzan does not fit.

    but get to $25k-$50k tt's, and compare them to the higher level above $75k tt's; now a $10k Herzan might take you further......or might not. but it's the context where it's definitely a question.......and higher mass and exotic suspension of those more spendy tt's might be bettered by active.

    and I would offer that adding the Taiko Tana level active can take one to an otherwise not attainable level in certain ways (but not all ways) regardless of price. there is no other tool that can do what it does. but there is much more to tt performance than resonance attenuation.

    and the more dynamic and full range a system is the more significant active can be....even musical genre can matter. lots of full range large orchestral will relate more value to active.

    so there is a system to system difference in ROI.
    X2 agree. Not to take this thread off topic but I wonder where a Vibraplane falls since it is less expensive and can be found used in the price range of Stillpoints (which I currently use).
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  6. #1036
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! rockitman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbo6 View Post
    X2 agree. Not to take this thread off topic but I wonder where a Vibraplane falls since it is less expensive and can be found used in the price range of Stillpoints (which I currently use).
    Vibraplane has a predicatable result being a passive device. I would say works well with the great majority of TT’s out there. Active devices like the table stable are not predictable and should be evaluated on a case by case basis as the active isolating counter forces that are a result of trying to isolate the vibrations of a spinning platter/motor can work against the sound resulting in less life to the musical reproduction.
    Christian

    System Gear

  7. #1037
    Member Sponsor [WBF Founding Member] Mike Lavigne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockitman View Post
    Vibraplane has a predicatable result being a passive device. I would say works well with the great majority of TT’s out there. Active devices like the table stable are not predictable and should be evaluated on a case by case basis as the active isolating counter forces that are a result of trying to isolate the vibrations of a spinning platter/motor can work against the sound resulting in less life to the musical reproduction.
    I see this a bit different.

    passive decoupling devices are even more contextual, as they have higher resonant frequencies and so can be more likely to not synergize with gear. passive devices typically do attenuate resonance to quite a bit higher frequencies than stock active. and if there is any sort of built in passive resonance attenuation in the gear and you then place it on top of a Vibraplane, the result is not predictable and there will be a feedback loop created. so passive is not so simple.

    OTOH active devices fully realized (Taiko Tana TS units w/Daiza) should work with anything as they are so much stiffer than any passive, attenuate to higher frequencies, and so are unlikely to be unpredictable......contribute zero power supply noise like passive......and outperform SMPS's. these do require solid racks and floors for optimal performance.

    naked active devices with SMPS (switch mode power supplies) are a mixed bag as you are dealing with 'net' performance; subtracting the negative effects of the noise from the SMPS and active performance not optimal with the SMPS and the limited resonance attenuation to 200hz. and i'm oversimplifying here.

    so the generalization that active is more contextual is confined to stock active devices and even then is not really true. more true would be that stock active and passive have their good and less good matches.

    I would 100% agree that the best active is not always a good ROI; not every system will get the performance lift to justify them. and the Vibraplane or even a STACORE (maybe the top of the passive food chain) is a more predictable ROI in more systems. and...….my opinion is that if you want to best possible resonance attenuation; a properly installed Taiko Tana TS/Daiza would be it at this time.

    YMMV, just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by Mike Lavigne; 07-27-2018 at 10:12 PM.
    Wave Kin. NVS tt, AS-2000 ord. (2) Durand Telos (1-Sapphire) arms, CA Gold Stat, Ort Anna carts, -2- Studer A-820 RTR (1/4" + 1/2").*MSB Select II dac w/33 Femto clock + mono powerbases, SGM serv + (2x) 30 tb NAS. *darT NHB-18NS w/2 phonos, King-Cello. *dart 458 mono blocks. EA MM7. *Equi=tech 10WQ, (10) Abso Fid PC & (2) Evo Acou PC. *Evo Acou 12' TRSC and 8m + 1.25m 'zeel' ic's, *Tripoint Troy Sig + Elite, Entreq Sil Tel + Pos, *Herzan TS-140 & TS-150, Wave Kin. A10 U8's + 2NS, Adona GTX.

  8. #1038
    Addicted to Best! theophile's Avatar
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    I have always asserted that great isolation is most fully realised in the context of a great system. Otherwise the inherent compromises of the component atop the support and the compromises of the rest of the system limit the effect which can be achieved by the isolation support. Isolation cannot transform a Fisher-Price turntable into a Continuum. In mentioning the Continuum, it is no accident that the manufacturers provide an isolation stand and prefer the turntable to be used in conjunction with the support.
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    Turntable support counts as another component. 21 Clearaudio Magix and more.

  9. #1039
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    IMHO when debating isolation tables we should not only focus on isolation performance and graphs - we must go back to the fundamental aspects.

    A passive table is a feedback free system that simple dissipates disturbances within its range of operation.

    An active table is a feedback system that neutralizes the disturbances creating an equal magnitude symmetrical disturbance, using what is called a sky-hook spring and a sky-hook damper. As all feedback systems , it is permanently compensating errors using specialized algorithms. These systems create their own noise. Weather this type of noise degrades or improves the performance of equipment is open to debate. IMHO the big susceptibility of these systems to power supply quality, as successfully exploited by Taiko Audio people, is due to the nature of feedback.

    For an interesting and accessible read on active devices see Recent Patents on Mechanical Engineering 2011, "Review of Active Vibration Isolation Strategies" , Christophe Collette, Stef Janssens and Kurt Artoos. homepages.ulb.ac.be/~ccollett/publi/J14.pdf

    IMHO isolation per see can not explain the sound attributes of these tables - otherwise we would simply put the electronics in another room ...

    Disclaimer - I have no experience with active tables in my audio system, although I have one less than 50 meters from my office ... As always, IMHO, YMMV.
    DCS Vivaldi 2.0 stack, Soundlab A1 Px's while waiting for the XLF successor, EMT927, SME3012R, ARC Phono 3, Lamm ML1.2 Ref, Lamm L2ref, Stealth Dream speaker , Crystal Dreamline ICs, TA XL digital, TA XL gen V power cables, CenterStage footers and Nordost Qkore8's!

  10. #1040
    [Industry Expert] Stacore's Avatar
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    Very nice article, Micro! Muito obrigado for sharing it.
    The mention of gravity wave detection as an application is cool A friend has been involved in this Nobel-prize discovery and the levels of displacement they measure are mind blowing! Also the mention of narrow-band dynamical isolators for helicopters is intriguing. This may be something interesting for a turntable design. Obviously Kronos comes to mind here.

    Cheers,
    Jarek Korbicz
    STACORE
    Manufacturer of Advanced
    Anti-vibration Solutions

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