American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)

I find it interesting that Walter thinks the AS 2000 sounds very dead because of its mass and material while former member ack claimed to me that it rings like a bell. As far as I know, neither critic has heard the turntable, yet each claims with confidence what it sounds like, and they claim the opposite.

Walter66 said:

Of course it isn't. It has been a practically prooven to be a true theory. Not by myself, but by others. You maybe have to read more about this subject.
Please elaborate why some of the worst, harshest sound should be generated by softer materials.

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You seem to be supporting these broad statements from a weird stance. The article you cite appears to be related to drive topologies, not platter and plinth materials. Even if it was, apart from a study that relates observations or simulations directly to the fundamentals of material science, this is nothing more than a magazine article, with validity and value asymptotically approaching zero when it comes to justifying anything based on real, in depth, hardcore science, as a foothold for the extrapolations you are making.
The assumptions and language you appear to be using (sorry if I'm mischaracterizing you) are clearly derived from a very intuitive stance - wood is alive and resonates, good, metal is cold and dead, bad - but our intuition only takes us so far. And it completely loses track of reality in most nonlinear phenomena that sits outside the scope and scale of our immediate perception, such as vibration transmission. Your intuition, same as mine, is mostly useless here. You shouldn't coat you intuition with a knowledge perfume in these matters. Involved knowledge is required, and those that have it developed a keen sense for identifying those that don't.

So you have three choices:

First, either you study this

to start with, then a couple more semesters on material science and you are on a path to dilute your intuitions on actual knowledge, still a long way from making a turntable, but it should prevent you from making unsupported claims.
Second, you can go the experimental, non biased way: choose a starting point, experiment, measure, listen, discuss, arrive to some general conclusions, rinse and repeat until you are happy and above your confidence threshold. You don't need the formal conceptual model from the first path, you're not building a mission critical nuclear reactor.
Third, you can go full guns blazing (along the lines of what you appear to be doing), make you statement based on some unrelated obscure hifi piece and move from there, proudly not caring about anything else.

Two of these choices effectively emulate progress and are built on reasonable epistemological principles. You can see the result of one of these paths here in this thread in the AS2000. The remaining path is just weird and appears to be more about the pursuit of a state of mind than of superior sonic performance.

IMO of course.

btw, a trivial reason why 'some of the worst, harshest sound should be generated by softer materials' is simply because they are compliant enough to present their resonance frequencies within the audio band. This is not a hard problem, but you need to know what is going on in order to devise an effective strategy to mitigate any degrading effect. Most solutions I see out in the wild are the equivalent of either using heavy artillery to kill a mosquito or thrusting a bb gun to bring down a raging rhinoceros.

@RCanelas fantastic post! But you are destroying a perfectly good argument by clouding the issue with facts. Tsk, tsk.

PeterA said:

I find it interesting that Walter thinks the AS 2000 sounds very dead because of its mass and material while former member ack claimed to me that it rings like a bell. As far as I know, neither critic has heard the turntable, yet each claims with confidence what it sounds like, and they claim the opposite.

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Whether a turntable is ringing can be determined very quickly with good measuring devices. Example NTI xl2 with vibration sensor. I only know 2 turntables that have a problem with it. They come from a time when people only valued smooth running (rumble measurement). I don't think they tested the materials of the platter that extensively back then. today you see more and more platter made of different materials, for example pom+metal, to nip vibrations in the bud.
If you are interested, you can borrow this device and measure it. I optimized my thorens in this way. here is a websiminar on how to measure and set the device correctly. sadly only in German.
Link video

DasguteOhr said:

Whether a turntable is ringing can be determined very quickly with good measuring devices. Example NTI xl2 with vibration sensor. I only know 2 turntables that have a problem with it. They come from a time when people only valued smooth running (rumble measurement). I don't think they tested the materials of the platter that extensively back then. today you see more and more platter made of different materials, for example pom+metal, to nip vibrations in the bud.
If you are interested, you can borrow this device and measure it. I optimized my thorens in this way. here is a websiminar on how to measure and set the device correctly. sadly only in German.

XL2 Schallpegelmesser & Akustik-Analysator | NTi Audio

Link video

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I just realised that NTi are only 10km away from my home

christoph said:

I just realised that NTi are only 10km away from my home

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is like a swiss army knife, measuring room acoustics, loudspeakers, vibrations, anything goes. unfortunately very expensive for private use rather what for manufacturers.
ask, I mean they make home visits for measurements. I think it's cheaper than buying.

Walter66 said:

Of course it isn't. It has been a practically prooven to be a true theory. Not by myself, but by others. You maybe have to read more about this subject.
Please elaborate why some of the worst, harshest sound should be generated by softer materials.

Btw, using generalized arguments on a personal level just shows real intentions. You seem to be not interested in a technical discussion but try to discredit other members here. Not a fair behaviour.

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See RCanales post. He’s correct that resonances in the wrong frequencies for vinyl can happen with softer materials. Sometimes it isn’t even the offending frequency but the fact that the rest are turned to mud and you raise the volume to compensate. You need to consider how well coupled the LP is as well. Sometimes just the coupling alone creates totally different resonance areas.

Folsom said:

See RCanales post. He’s correct that resonances in the wrong frequencies for vinyl can happen with softer materials. Sometimes it isn’t even the offending frequency but the fact that the rest are turned to mud and you raise the volume to compensate. You need to consider how well coupled the LP is as well. Sometimes just the coupling alone creates totally different resonance areas.

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I have learned from doing my various experiments with steel plates under my components that it is not about dampening or eliminating the resonances. Success comes from learning or knowing how to manage them. This took time.

The audiophile re-issue LPs sound different on the thicker and reformulated vinyl.

PeterA said:

I have learned from doing my various experiments with steel plates under my components that it is not about dampening or eliminating the resonances. Success comes from learning or knowing how to manage them. This took time

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Yes exactly, managing vibration. You cannot eliminate it. The conservation of energy - you can manage resonance by directing how and where it moves, by making it do work to use itself up, which means converting it into another form of energy such as heat. It can be blocked by vacuum.

PeterA said:

I have learned from doing my various experiments with steel plates under my components that it is not about dampening or eliminating the resonances. Success comes from learning or knowing how to manage them. This took time.

The audiophile re-issue LPs sound different on the thicker and reformulated vinyl.

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Hi Peter,

Please can you share what you learnt specifically when you wrote “that it is not about dampening or eliminating the resonances. Success comes from learning or knowing how to manage them. This took time.” Would be enormously helpful.

Thanks.

Audiophile Bill said:

Hi Peter,

Please can you share what you learnt specifically when you wrote “that it is not about dampening or eliminating the resonances. Success comes from learning or knowing how to manage them. This took time.” Would be enormously helpful.

Thanks.

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Whatever DDK told him

tima said:

Yes exactly, managing vibration. You cannot eliminate it. The conservation of energy - you can manage resonance by directing how and where it moves, by making it do work to use itself up, which means converting it into another form of energy such as heat. It can be blocked by vacuum.

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Off course you can eliminate it , DDK knows it all to well .
The Vibration absorption characteristic of paper is basically the solution.( works great as " natural sounding "paper mid range membranes as well )

Kharma exquisite speakers are made from HPL .
HPL is layers of paper stacked on top of each other , then drenched completely in phenolic resin and heated pressurized into plates ranging from 40 mm to 2 - 3 mm .

May be DDK can try it on his TT designs or may be he has tried it already

andromedaaudio said:

Off course you can eliminate it [resonance/vibration], DDK knows it all to well .
The Vibration absorption characteristic of paper is basically the solution.( works great as " natural sounding "paper mid range membranes as well )

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Perhaps you have a future in the paper mache turntable business.

tima said:

Perhaps you have a future in the paper mache turntable business.

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No i leave that market niche opportunity for reviewers who are looking for a career switch .
(I have a good paying profession already).

PeterA said:

I have learned from doing my various experiments with steel plates under my components that it is not about dampening or eliminating the resonances. Success comes from learning or knowing how to manage them. This took time.

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Of course, own experiences will lead to judgements about components. I'm very good at listening to components, and to detect their sound.

Btw, I have stopped using those "dead" materials like stainless steel, concrete, any artificial elements, plastics for record players since some decades. And this is for some reason, I mean, sonic reasons.

Because they all have a sonic footprint I dislike. Some people like it, fine to by me.

But to deny the fact that every used material has its own sound signature is simply ridiculous. And it can only be told to people who haven't made those experiences, or, in short, are inexperienced in this field of an audio hobby.

People are listening their whole life with a plastic plinth record player without knowing what the source of the sound of their audio gear is about.

Of course, a plastic player will always sound like plastic. But they have been used to this sound for so long, it's like someone will walk all his life in too small shoes, from some point onwards, the pain and disruption of the feet will be no longer feelable. It becomes the new normal.

When some people on this forum attempt to put every argument against this very simple fact that record player plinths have their own sonic signature because of the different materials they are using, I will encourage those people to make their own experiences. And not only put big books on the shelf that theorizes everything but have no practical approach.

Once Goethe says:
"Gray, dear friend, is all theory,
And green the golden tree of life."

Try it for yourself, as long as you haven't done it already. I did my share of experience on that field of active DIY audio career. And I know what I know, nobody could tell me to belief this or that, because I don't have to belief, its simply a fact to me and many other, too. Learned by own experience, the best and only way to learn in life.

XV-1 said:

Whatever DDK told him

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Good one XV. You are right. I have learned a lot from David, as have many other people. You can read my response to Bill below and judge for yourself whether or not I learned anything or am simply parroting what David told me. I have gleaned some of his thinking on this subject from discussions we have had about the design of his new turntable.

Audiophile Bill said:

Hi Peter,

Please can you share what you learnt specifically when you wrote “that it is not about dampening or eliminating the resonances. Success comes from learning or knowing how to manage them. This took time.” Would be enormously helpful.

Thanks.

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Hello Bill,

I wrote fairly extensively about this in my sublime sound thread. When I had my old system, I supported my turntable and amplifiers on Vibraplane pneumatic isolation platforms. I then added steel ballast plates to preload them for optimal performance. They work best with 275 pounds of weight above them so the plates or sized with a specific gear in mind.

Overtime I came to realize that the air was dampening the sound so I deflated them. The gear was then simply sitting on about 250 lbs of steel. Some of the steel plates were different material and different sizes.

Shortly after this, I start corresponding with David about system set up. He suggested I add some more steel plates under my other components on the shelves. The steel plates rang when tapping them. I began a series of experiments trying to dampen the ringing. I found that with different dimension O-rings and different numbers of O-rings in different positions under the steel plates I could tune the sound.

There was another member doing similar experiments and we were both talking to David who was developing his steel rack system. I also tried some materials on top of the steel plates underneath the footers of my equipment. David was developing a complete rack system to support his turntable design. I was looking for a solution for each individual component to use with my existing rack system.

The steel plates provided mass which in general lowered the noise for increased clarity in the sound of my system. However, it was easy to over damp the steel and suck the life out of the music or under damp them which caused certain colorations and enhanced upper frequencies. Finding the right size and number of O-rings and putting them in the right place became a fun exercise. The reward was a more natural sounding system and a more emotionally involving listening experience.

PeterA said:

Good one XV. You are right. I have learned a lot from David, as have many other people. You can read my response to Bill below and judge for yourself whether or not I learned anything.



Hello Bill,

I wrote fairly extensively about this in my sublime sound thread. When I had my old system, I supported my turntable and amplifiers on Vibraplane pneumatic isolation platforms. I then added steel ballast plates to preload them for optimal performance. They work best with 275 pounds of weight above them so the plates or sized with a specific gear in mind.

Overtime I came to realize that the air was dampening the sound so I deflated them. The gear was then simply sitting on about 250 lbs of steel. Some of the steel plates were different material and different sizes.

Shortly after this, I start corresponding with David about system set up. He suggested I add some more steel plates under my other components on the shelves. The steel plates rang when tapping them. I began a series of experiments trying to dampen the ringing. I found that with different dimension O-rings and different numbers of O-rings in different positions under the steel plates I could tune the sound.

There was another member doing similar experiments and we were both talking to David who was developing his steel rack system. I also tried some materials on top of the steel plates underneath the footers of my equipment. David was developing a complete rack system to support his turntable design. I was looking for a solution for each individual component to use with my existing rack system.

The steel plates provided mass which in general lowered the noise for increased clarity in the sound of my system. However, it was easy to over damp the steel and suck the life out of the music or under damp them which caused certain colorations and enhanced upper frequencies. Finding the right size and number of O-rings and putting them in the right place became a fun exercise. The reward was a more natural sounding system and a more emotionally involving listening experience.

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Thank you Peter - I missed this whole exercise in your old thread. Very interesting.

The floor of your house is suspended? Do foot stomps not get transferred through your rack if you were to jump next to the rack?

Audiophile Bill said:

Thank you Peter - I missed this whole exercise in your old thread. Very interesting.

The floor of your house is suspended? Do foot stomps not get transferred through your rack if you were to jump next to the rack?

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You are welcome Bill. I installed a steel column under each of the four legs of my rack going through the basement down to the house foundation. There are no issues.

I apologize to Tang for taking the discussion away from his system and David’s Turntable.