Auditioning a turntable is kind of ... impossible?
- Thread starter dnanian
- Start date
Ideally one should start with the software so that all future audition/decisions happen to maximize listening to that software. However, that is impractical as we learn about software due to the process and that invariably comes at a later stage
I would spend on the vdh or whatever the choice cartridge is for someone, have the least cost matching arm to accompany it, and spend on the TT till I reach a stable maximum, i.e. keep out negatives in the TT. I won't go into what TTs I find negative, but I will settle for TD 124, then STST Motus II, and finally Brinkmann Balance for a pivoted arm in order of increasing price. I don't think I need to spend beyond that except for a different sound, like EMT 927 which I like grooving too and would like it as a second table if I had the money, or where a linear tracker is required in which case I will spend on the linear tracker TT first. Based on what I heard with the TD 124, the Dava could be the right complement for the EMT to get it the nuance required retaining the positives (To be verified), in which case that can become the primary pivoted table.
I think the best TT in their range of price are Bergmann and Techdas,and Galder with Odin and AF3P are a best buy.
Are very good company,well done and beautiful and dont give problems to use for many years,serius company and when you want to sell,will be simple to sell.
I had Sindre and now AF3P,and my friend had Sindre and now bought Galder
Both TT sound very very good in our systems.
If you have interest,my friend Italian distributor of Bergmann has a Sindre like new at around 7.000/6.800 euro.
Are very good company,well done and beautiful and dont give problems to use for many years,serius company and when you want to sell,will be simple to sell.
I had Sindre and now AF3P,and my friend had Sindre and now bought Galder
Both TT sound very very good in our systems.
If you have interest,my friend Italian distributor of Bergmann has a Sindre like new at around 7.000/6.800 euro.
I really appreciate all the time people have spent thinking about this and offering advice.
Given the difficulties involved in actually auditioning, I had tried to narrow the field, perhaps inappropriately, to two high-mass designs, both with the possibility of multiple tonearms, both with vacuum hold-down, one linear and one pivoted.
I thought that those would provide excellent contrast with the P10/Apheta 3 combo, given they're both on the entirely opposite end of the design brief.
Clearly, based on the feedback received, narrowing things that way isn't something that's a good idea, at least from a "trying to do this objectively" stand point...but not narrowing things has its own problems that send me back to a semi-paralyzed "this seems impossible" state.
I had tried to base a certain amount of this on things I had seen and heard and liked in informal settings, then trying to correlate those impressions with reviews of those units, trying to focus on a single review like Mr. Fremer, to take variables out of the equation. But clearly there's a significant amount of subjectivity even within that, because things he might suggest (his P10 review is extremely positive) - whereas others on the forum would say the P10 is basically a Crosley.
Anyway - there's clearly a broad spectrum of opinion and experience, and it's going to take quite a long time to actually come to any sort of conclusion, let alone make actual comparisons.
It does seem, though, like it might be interesting to start by keeping everything the same except for the cartridge, and see what difference that can make. Save for the difficulty of mounting (obviously easy with, say, the Aphelion 2; more difficult with others, some of which would require a heavier counterweight), and the obvious inability to have two tonearms and a very direct A/B comparison, I would at least be able to do that over a year or so...
Given the difficulties involved in actually auditioning, I had tried to narrow the field, perhaps inappropriately, to two high-mass designs, both with the possibility of multiple tonearms, both with vacuum hold-down, one linear and one pivoted.
I thought that those would provide excellent contrast with the P10/Apheta 3 combo, given they're both on the entirely opposite end of the design brief.
Clearly, based on the feedback received, narrowing things that way isn't something that's a good idea, at least from a "trying to do this objectively" stand point...but not narrowing things has its own problems that send me back to a semi-paralyzed "this seems impossible" state.
I had tried to base a certain amount of this on things I had seen and heard and liked in informal settings, then trying to correlate those impressions with reviews of those units, trying to focus on a single review like Mr. Fremer, to take variables out of the equation. But clearly there's a significant amount of subjectivity even within that, because things he might suggest (his P10 review is extremely positive) - whereas others on the forum would say the P10 is basically a Crosley.
Anyway - there's clearly a broad spectrum of opinion and experience, and it's going to take quite a long time to actually come to any sort of conclusion, let alone make actual comparisons.
It does seem, though, like it might be interesting to start by keeping everything the same except for the cartridge, and see what difference that can make. Save for the difficulty of mounting (obviously easy with, say, the Aphelion 2; more difficult with others, some of which would require a heavier counterweight), and the obvious inability to have two tonearms and a very direct A/B comparison, I would at least be able to do that over a year or so...
Normally from where you are at first you need to broaden shortlist by a lot before narrowing it down.
You know it's better than a Crosley, so this thinking is a distraction from the goal
For your situation I want to disagree with this approach, as I strongly believe changing tables will be a paradigm shift...but you must start somewhere. Any advancement of your experience will be useful. And buying the cart first breaks up the expenditure into two pieces
Rega carts are quite lightweight (6g), and you don't know what tonearm potentially comes next, but thankfully there are great carts in the 8g - 11g range, which is what I would look at.
So, to continue the saga a bit, I've tried to stay on the "neutral" side, tonally speaking, and have mounted an AT-ART1000 (which I realize is on the heavier side, so I purchased the heavier Rega counterweight) with appropriate spacers to compensate for height. Of course, that's only an approximation of VTA, and I'll have to figure out how to get that set right, but it's likely in the rough ballpark.
It's a bit weird that they don't have a threaded headshell, so you have to use their bolts-and-nuts...and they encourage you go put the screws in from the bottom - so you end up with threads sticking out of the headshell. (The short screws are too short, and the long screws are too long.) Meh.
I do wish the arm had a removable headshell (or more than one arm on the 'table) so I could switch readily between the Apheta 3 and the AT-ART1000, but they are extremely different sounding. Rough notes from an inexperienced comparer - for whatever reason, the AT-ART1000's imaging is much more precise, with significantly more depth to the soundstage. Frequency response seems extended on both the high and low end, with less sibilance on challenging material, and fuller (and better controlled) bass response.
Anyway, it's quite interesting so far. I still find it hard to believe this particular cartridge design even works, and that they can produce it at a reasonable price.
It's a bit weird that they don't have a threaded headshell, so you have to use their bolts-and-nuts...and they encourage you go put the screws in from the bottom - so you end up with threads sticking out of the headshell. (The short screws are too short, and the long screws are too long.) Meh.
I do wish the arm had a removable headshell (or more than one arm on the 'table) so I could switch readily between the Apheta 3 and the AT-ART1000, but they are extremely different sounding. Rough notes from an inexperienced comparer - for whatever reason, the AT-ART1000's imaging is much more precise, with significantly more depth to the soundstage. Frequency response seems extended on both the high and low end, with less sibilance on challenging material, and fuller (and better controlled) bass response.
Anyway, it's quite interesting so far. I still find it hard to believe this particular cartridge design even works, and that they can produce it at a reasonable price.
Just saw that now. LOL. No I won't ask dnanian to go digital (depending on his musical interests), but I would expect him not to ask me to go vinyl either.
Yes, I know a tiny bit about turntables and records. I do know that when I listen to vinyl, which I enjoy in my friends' systems, I want a fully analog experience if possible. *No* digital step anywhere -- that's also why I don't have a particularly high opinion about today's celebrated "vinyl resurgence". It begs the question, what's the point if 90+ % of those records are digital sourced.
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To be clear, I have no general problem with digital content. I just think we -- or I -- lost aspects of the listening experience when I went digital...and so, I've tried to bring that back as an additional option...not an exclusive one.
I bought a one owner second hand Kuzma XL DC with a 4 Point 11" and a My Sonic Lab Eminent EX cartridge from a Kuzma Dealer in Norway blind without listening to it or even seeing it for my UK system. Always wanted a XL DC and have been waiting to purchase the right one for some time now.
Loving the XL DC especially playing through my Hifiman EF1000 & Susvara Headphones which is light years better than my Rega P10 with Apheta 3 (guess it should be considering the much higher cost).
Haven't played one CD since I have set up the XL DC (over the last four weeks).
I will now be selling my Rega P10 with Apheta 3 (once I get the Apheta 3 repaired via Rega which I accidentally bent the cantilever with my hand without even knowing about it !).
Now considering whether to upgrade the Rega Aura Phono Stage or not to a much higher level Phono Stage ?
Loving the XL DC especially playing through my Hifiman EF1000 & Susvara Headphones which is light years better than my Rega P10 with Apheta 3 (guess it should be considering the much higher cost).
Haven't played one CD since I have set up the XL DC (over the last four weeks).
I will now be selling my Rega P10 with Apheta 3 (once I get the Apheta 3 repaired via Rega which I accidentally bent the cantilever with my hand without even knowing about it !).
Now considering whether to upgrade the Rega Aura Phono Stage or not to a much higher level Phono Stage ?
Given the level of your table, arm, and cartridge, you might want to consider something I would most definitely think about a considerably better phono stage than the Rega.
Yes, agree with you 'gleeds', but choosing a better a Phono Stage I can see being a mine field as there are so many to choose from. The Rega Aura (which is Rega's Reference Phono Stage - not their cheaper 'Aria' which some people are mistaken by) was an easy choice as I bought the Rega P10 at the same time.
p.s. I won't write anymore about my Phono Stage quandary on this thread as I don't want to derail it. I have just written a separate thread directly relating to my quandary with the Rega Aura upgrade.
I also use the same tonearm on a Kuzma Stabi M turntable. I also use a low resistance cart like you, in my case a Miyabi Fuuga. What I found out is; the best I can get out of a low resistance cartridge is via transimpedance amplification. For this there are not many options, less than your fingers in both hands. If you are a big spender you can go CH Precision P1 and use its current input. If you are not, I have a great suggestion for your cart. It is the channel D Lino c 3.3. It is not very expensive, operates from battery, dead quiet, has the best measured performance from stereophile and has actually great performance right here in my room! This type of phono eliminates loading so you just plug it in. The input has to be balanced and if you want to get the last ounce of performance out of it, you go balanced output too imho.
CHANNEL D - Lino C
www.channld.com
You might find the Konus Audio Vinyle 3000MC (http://www.konus-audio.com/vinyle-3000mc.html) interesting. Minimalist design, current input, sounds remarkably alive. The gentleman who builds Konus is also the worldwide distributor for Fuuga. Really nice phono.
Thank you Kodomo for your suggestion of two phono stages for my My Sonic Lab Eminent EX cartridge. Much appreciated.
The Channel D Lino C3.3 looks a very interesting phono stage, and like you say not very expensive compared to other current input phono stages like the CH Precision P1.
I've set up a Galder/Odin/AirTight PC-1 Supreme and a TechDas V Premium / Kuzma 4 Point 14/EMT Novel in recent months and while there are many variables in both of these to determine which is the better overall performer, I remember being more impressed with the TechDas combination overall. Having said that, that Galder is a piece of art!
Suffice to say, either TT you are looking at is a HUGE improvement over the Rega you have and I doubt youwould be unhappy with either.
Suffice to say, either TT you are looking at is a HUGE improvement over the Rega you have and I doubt youwould be unhappy with either.
Just to let you know, I had rega reference ios with the first apheta on an older rega turntable years ago when 1st apheta came out. There is not even a contest with that and with a Lino C and a low resistance cartridge for me.
Very nice TTs 'Hydrology' and very nice photos.
However I have my end game dream TT....a Kuzma XL DC with Kuzma 4point 11" that is replacing my Rega P10.
It is the Rega Aura Phono Stage I am contemplating changing for a Phono Stage that is super quiet as I mainly listen to my music at the moment with my Headphone set-up (Hifiman EF1000 Hybrid Headphone & Speaker Amp (tube Pre input & SS amp output) & Hifiman Susvara headphones).
I find I can hear a small amount of hum from the Rega Aura (with the EF1000 at 12 to 1 O'clock volume dial position - requrired to power the Susvara to it's best musical level) and the record surface noise can be quite prominent with some of my records (old and new - even with cleaning them with my Keith Monks Classic RCM) through my Headphone System.
However through my small Focal Electra 1008 Be speakers (using my EF1000 Amp) such hum is non existent and record surface noise quite low to non existent on some records.
So I am wondering if I change the Rega Aura that I can get rid of any hum and ideally eliminate or at least reduce record surface noise through my TOTL Headphone System.
I listen to all music genres, however I am loving more and more popular live acoustic recordings (especially unplugged recordings i.e. Eric Clapton, Nirvana etc.), live jazz recordings (Jazz at the Pawnshop etc.) and contemporary jazz especially with female vocals (Patricia Barber, Diana Krall, Holly Cole etc.) more and more.
I am liking more the vinyl sound from my analogue set-up than my Chord Blu & M Scaler and DAVE digital set up which is now sounding quite flat and non emotional and sterile (although very transparent especially through my Chord Prima Pre-Amp and Mezzo 140) compared to my analogue set-up.
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