A Bright Shining Lie…Why ignoring an inconvenient truth is stifling system performance a blog from Roy Gregory

Carlos269

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If you want to optimize, you have to be prepared to move speakers around. Size of speakers is no excuse.
So do you compensate by repositioning the speakers when you insert new interconnect or speaker cables into your system? How about when evaluating new record clamps or record weights? Do you also reposition the speakers then? Do you relocate the speakers when evaluating the differences between the balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs or outputs of the same preamp? In a multi-arm turntable set-up do you compensate by reposition the speakers for each arm or cartridge or combination of both? Please walk me through the logic where speaker repositioning compensation is valid for some components and not for others? Do you compensate with speaker repositioning for temperature gradients as the components and system warm up and go through their operating temperature range? Where is speaker repositioning valid? And where is it not? Get the picture yet?

speaker portioning is meant to optimize the loudspeaker’s polar response and radiation patterns with respect to the room boundaries and listener’s position. It is not practical or logical for use for components compensation, but you could of course make use of it that way if that is logical to you.

The best reviewers and end-users at home can do when evaluating different components is to “normalize” the evaluation. If you were for instance make an assessment of two different components with each “optimized” with their own, different, speaker positioning this assessment would be invalid and flawed when evaluating the Inherent qualities of each component. For a reviewer to do this, is and would be ignorant as it would imbed different parameters and invalidate any and all conclusions that are being attempted to be shared with the readers as these would be special cases as opposed to diligent systematic process, from which the reader can draw broad and valid conclusions reached on the basis of evidence and solid reasoning.
 
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morricab

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If you want to optimize, you have to be prepared to move speakers around. Size of speakers is no excuse.
See Carlos269's post...says it all.
 

Al M.

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Al M.

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So do you compensate by repositioning the speakers when you insert new interconnect or speaker cables into your system? How about when evaluating new record clamps or record weights? Do you also reposition the speakers then? Do you relocate the speakers when evaluating the differences between the balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs or outputs of the same preamp? In a multi-arm turntable set-up do you compensate by reposition the speakers for each arm or cartridge or combination of both? Please walk me through the logic where speaker repositioning compensation is valid for some components and not for others? Do you compensate with speaker repositioning for temperature gradients as the components and system warm up and go through their operating temperature range? Where is speaker repositioning valid? And where is it not? Get the picture yet?

speaker portioning is meant to optimize the loudspeaker’s polar response and radiation patterns with respect to the room boundaries and listener’s position. It is not practical or logical for use for components compensation, but you could of course make use of it that way if that is logical to you.

The best reviewers and end-users at home can do when evaluating different components is to “normalize” the evaluation. If you were for instance make an assessment of two different components with each “optimized” with their own, different, speaker positioning this assessment would be invalid and flawed when evaluating the Inherent qualities of each component. For a reviewer to do this, is and would be ignorant as it would imbed different parameters and invalidate any and all conclusions that are being attempted to be shared with the readers as these would be special cases as opposed to diligent systematic process, from which the reader can draw broad and valid conclusions reached on the basis of evidence and solid reasoning.

I mentioned one example from my own system in a post above where *not* changing speaker positioning to accommodate for a potentially better component (which turned out to be in fact better, at least in my particular system context) would have been plain moronic.
 

PeterA

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Tell that to Peter...:D

As you know Brad, my corner horn speakers are already optimized to the room and they have an excellent amplifier match. I suspect they would sound better in a bigger room but that is a different topic.

It is a good condition for making direct comparisons between components like cartridges or turntables or even cables if I were interested in doing that. I refer to my speaker design as an early version of a lifestyle aesthetic. I’m a bit surprised that there are not more contemporary designs that take advantage of the corner placement.

To Carlos I would simply respond that as a hobbyists, we do what we are able to do and what we think is practical. Someone who has multiple turntables or tonearms and cartridges is not going to move his speakers every time he switches. If one wants to try a different amplifier, it might make sense to play a bit with speaker positioning. For everything in between, I think it’s up to the person doing the evaluations.

Edit: I should add that the learning process is fluid. As I got better gear and learned how it interacted with the room and the rest of the system, I became a better listener which led to more adjustments and fine-tuning. My sonic target also changed over time which led to other experiments with set up, or vice versa. This article and the way we are discussing it seems to be from the perspective of people who have been around the hobby for a while and have fairly strong opinions based on past experience. That was not the case for me when I had less experience and was less certain of my goal and how to reach it.

I appreciate Mr. Gregory‘s article for making us think about these things.
 
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wil

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In addition, you don't know where you should be moving said speaker to get the optimization...this means quite a lot of faffing about to see even IF there is a location where the speaker now performs better (if it in fact was performing worse after the change). If there isn't a better spot, can you then declare one piece of gear inferior to another or do you have to keep shuffling your speakers around?

I guess if you have tiny speakers it would be easy to do but for many of us with larger (or very large) speakers, this is a non-starter unless you happen to have them on wheels, which is probably a big no-no as well.
As he said, it’s very inconvenient! My personal solution is to stop making changes.
 

microstrip

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Francisco, I am surprised by your answer, given that you rightly always emphasize a whole-system approach, and also rightly suggest that often a component does not perform as well as desired because of lack of matching to the system, rather than because of intrinsic quality.

This also, as you stated before, has the potential to make negative reviews problematic (even though personally I think that sometimes a negative review could be warranted, beyond the caveat of system matching).

So I thought this article was very much along the lines of your arguments.

And obviously, the answer to your somewhat rhetorical question is that, yes, it is about finding the full possibilities in a system.

My answer just looks at at the different perspectives of comparisons - as you rightly say I disagree with many people about the value the A/B switch type comparison, that IMHO mainly evaluates system compatibility.
But I do not rule them out as a source of information.

Rooms differ a lot. I have seen rooms where changing a few centimeters completely changes the sound. Others seem much less sensitive and show hardly any discernable difference for fine positioning.

Surely this article needs a lot of thinking and debate - its main intention seems to devaluate reviews and sources of information, creating the space for something messianic. Or even for a dictatorship based in methodology. :(

And sorry, if an original Krell power amp was lean and tight at bottom end it was being used in a inadequate system or simply cold - the damn thing needed a few hours before sounding good.
 
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Elliot G.

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As I have said many times before I am a believer in the system and the set up of the system. When I do try something new I do insert it into my system and listen. If it is something I like I can ususally tell pretty quickly. I cant do this since I am used to what I have set up and purchased and how it works in my sound room. If I decide to keep the new item I almost always then try to get as much out of the system as possible and many times that will involve tweaking the position of my speakers.
I do agree that this is virtually impossible to do on every single change a dealer for example would make or when doing A/B comparisions. System optimization requires time and patience ( for me). I can however hear the difference the new product made and then decide if I want it and how I may be able to get more out of the system with this new item that improoved what I am hearing.
I personally don't do many A/B comparisons anymore and don't change gear that often. I didn't need to go back and forth when I changed my DAC I could hear what I wanted very quickly. I have tried a few different amplifiers with my speakers and again hear what they do without having to move everything but if I was to try to optimize everything and swith it everyday I would be really tired of it very quickly.
I would like to ask Roy Gregory when he gets a new product and puts it in his system does he immediatley start moving his speakers? Does he wait until he makes some decision about the quality first? When is the proper time to make thse adjustments?
Thank you
 

LL21

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So do you compensate by repositioning the speakers when you insert new interconnect or speaker cables into your system? How about when evaluating new record clamps or record weights? Do you also reposition the speakers then? Do you relocate the speakers when evaluating the differences between the balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs or outputs of the same preamp? In a multi-arm turntable set-up do you compensate by reposition the speakers for each arm or cartridge or combination of both? Please walk me through the logic where speaker repositioning compensation is valid for some components and not for others? Do you compensate with speaker repositioning for temperature gradients as the components and system warm up and go through their operating temperature range? Where is speaker repositioning valid? And where is it not? Get the picture yet?

speaker portioning is meant to optimize the loudspeaker’s polar response and radiation patterns with respect to the room boundaries and listener’s position. It is not practical or logical for use for components compensation, but you could of course make use of it that way if that is logical to you.

The best reviewers and end-users at home can do when evaluating different components is to “normalize” the evaluation. If you were for instance make an assessment of two different components with each “optimized” with their own, different, speaker positioning this assessment would be invalid and flawed when evaluating the Inherent qualities of each component. For a reviewer to do this, is and would be ignorant as it would imbed different parameters and invalidate any and all conclusions that are being attempted to be shared with the readers as these would be special cases as opposed to diligent systematic process, from which the reader can draw broad and valid conclusions reached on the basis of evidence and solid reasoning.
The first thing we do is put in the component and listen. What do we like? What do we not like? It helps to get a 'base position' of roughly what the new component does vs its predecessor. Sometimes you get something is 100% better in all areas, but not always. If it is better in all areas, set it and forget it...frankly, I probably dont go around moving 600lb speakers just for sport and find out I ruined the perfect spot. In the end, we could be missing something in not doing so, but with an all-out improvement, we take it and dont look back.

However, on at least 5 major occasions, we REALLY liked some elements a lot (revelations of clarity)...but LOST something that were forcing us to make a difficult decision: give up the newfound wonder and lose something we had grown accustomed to...or try to reconfigure to keep what we liked AND get the new uplift in performance.

Thus, the second thing we do is sometimes we take days, sometimes 6 weeks or longer to reconfigure. Moving speakers for example. One time, it was focusing further on isolation where it became clear there was a chance it was NOT the new component...but that upon more careful listening it was exposing other areas of the sound which had heretofore been masked. But in the end, most reconfiguration has enabled the best of both worlds.

However, there have been 1-2 times when reconfiguration did NOT work...and we had to give up a benefit because the price in performance elsewhere that was lost was too great.

In the end, my goal is not a static comparison of A vs B where even if I can further improve the overall system sound by reconfiguring I dont. The goal is moving the entire system forward by purchasing a new component. If by reconfiguring the system to reinforce some weaknesses of the new component...I can capture improvements from this component I have been unable to reproduce with the existing system, then that for us is a 'Buy'...but a 'Buy' that comes with caveats (ie, get ready that you might need to reconfigure).

Stillpoints is a great example. In over 10 years of using them, we have almost never found them to be a great drop-in replacement. They provide great benefits as a drop-in A v B...but in our system, also took away. The placement of the Stillpoints under the equipment, combined with using HRS isolation pads with them and mass damping on top is where after hours and weeks of experimentation, the Stillpoints became permanent members of the system. But they would NOT have been a 'Buy' in a simple A vs B comparison with only using HRS because the drop in results was greater clarity but at the addition of some hardness and loss of weight in Middle C...sacrifices which I was not prepared to make.

So reconfiguration was key to the overall evaluation and purchase decision.
 

Kingrex

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I believe in 1 change at a time. But I also believe you need to optimize the environment for each device. Lets just stick to amps because that is the subject in the article. What if the reviewers reference is a 5 lb class D amp that sits on a nebulous shelf, and now a Gryphon Apex shows up. What is the Apex to be placed upon????

What about the power cord feeding the amp????

What if the input signal jack is gold on 1 amp and platinum on the other?????

Quickly the review could not be about 1 amp compared to another amp, but what stand, power cord and interconnect should not be used with the Apex amp.
 

Atmasphere

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Hm. If the amplifier is acting as a voltage source and the new amp to be compared does too, it seems unlikely there would be any need to move speakers.

OTOH if the output impedance of the amp is high enough that the amp behaves as a power source (for example, most SETs made) then you do have to move the speakers and I've told this to people a number of times going back at least 30 years. This is because an amp with a high output impedance has a low damping factor. When bass notes are around, bass waveforms reflected from the wall behind the listener can interact with the woofer and the amp won't have the damping factor to keep things constant- the back EMF is affected. So the speaker might have to be moved a bit to get the bass right. I've also found myself telling people to move the speakers further apart if they could, because the center fill was so much more palpable; they could get bigger more lifelike images.

So this is a matter that has to do with the amp and not anything else- although a power cord can affect the output impedance of an amp if there is enough voltage drop and the amp is lacking feedback. Similarly speaker cables could have an effect, but not a change elsewhere in the system.

Put another way, the output impedance of the amp is the issue here. That is why I said 'acting as a voltage source' above. That implies that the output impedance is low enough that the amp will make constant voltage, and will deal with the back EMF of the speaker. I'm assuming that in the example given in the story's anecdote, that the ARC was unable to behave as a proper voltage source on the speaker used, possibly because of the speaker impedance.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Hm. If the amplifier is acting as a voltage source and the new amp to be compared does too, it seems unlikely there would be any need to move speakers.

OTOH if the output impedance of the amp is high enough that the amp behaves as a power source (for example, most SETs made) then you do have to move the speakers and I've told this to people a number of times going back at least 30 years. This is because an amp with a high output impedance has a low damping factor. When bass notes are around, bass waveforms reflected from the wall behind the listener can interact with the woofer and the amp won't have the damping factor to keep things constant- the back EMF is affected. So the speaker might have to be moved a bit to get the bass right. I've also found myself telling people to move the speakers further apart if they could, because the center fill was so much more palpable; they could get bigger more lifelike images.

So this is a matter that has to do with the amp and not anything else- although a power cord can affect the output impedance of an amp if there is enough voltage drop and the amp is lacking feedback. Similarly speaker cables could have an effect, but not a change elsewhere in the system.

Put another way, the output impedance of the amp is the issue here. That is why I said 'acting as a voltage source' above. That implies that the output impedance is low enough that the amp will make constant voltage, and will deal with the back EMF of the speaker. I'm assuming that in the example given in the story's anecdote, that the ARC was unable to behave as a proper voltage source on the speaker used, possibly because of the speaker impedance.

Yet his own example was in fact a push pull KT based ARC amp not a SET.

That said, it isn’t just the amps. Brighter sources might well benefit from less tow.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Actually, it’s a quote.
Thank you kindly for replying about my quibble.

But I am afraid I don’t understand. Your title is not in quotes, and I don’t see that clause quoted anywhere in your essay and attributed to someone else.
 

microstrip

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Thank you kindly for replying about my quibble.

But I am afraid I don’t understand. Your title is not in quotes, and I don’t see that clause quoted anywhere in your essay and attributed to someone else.

It is the tittle of a book and a movie. Discussing it will violate TOS ... :eek:
 
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gleeds

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I'll need to read Roy's article a few times before making any further comments. At this moment, Roy is providing a very dim view of the industry as he did in his previous article. I think what I am wrestling with is the idea that unless you follow his prescription, as a consumer you will almost always be wrong when choosing an upgrade path. Although in fairness, I believe RG did limit his comments to amplifiers (and their potential to create a change in spectral balance), so I guess it is ok to swap out other components without rearranging your speakers?
 

Mike Lavigne

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i've spent as much time and resources as anyone to optimize my room and system to particular gear. i've been all-in from the ground up. i've had the same signal path for 17 years, as far as brands. so obviously i appreciate just how much fine tuning can be done to get the most out of the combination of pieces i have.

i have inserted different amplifiers into this very 'set' system a few times, and it's very fair to say that me not changing my system or set-up to some degree, did contribute to the result of those trials. the question might be did it change the outcomes and conclusions i reached enough to change my mind about the gear decisions.

my guess is no.

but it's not that simple. if i were to have made more changes to accommodate the alternative amps, i believe it would have taken me in the wrong direction for my tastes. but i'm only guessing about it at this point, as i really don't know how it might have turned out.

my speakers are especially dialed into my room, as well as the bass towers have multiple adjustments for best integration. it only took me 6 weeks of fiddling with the adjustments on the back of the bass towers to get them dialed in to my satisfaction. if i were to try different amps, i would need to be prepared to take a similar amount of time to optimize them too with those adjustments, not even considering the time it might take to change locations.

i agree mostly with Roy. to me the lesson is that we just cannot assume anything if we want it all. yet OTOH, some degree of common sense and intuition must also be used. some type changes don't call for system accommodations. others do. no absolutes.

is my system and situation relevant?
 
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Atmasphere

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Yet his own example was in fact a push pull KT based ARC amp not a SET.

That said, it isn’t just the amps. Brighter sources might well benefit from less tow.
With regards to the former, that is why I mentioned that the ARC amp was unable to act as a voltage source on the particular speaker of the anecdote.
With regards to the latter, please re-read the article. This is nothing whatsoever to do with sources.
 

Audiophile Bill

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With regards to the former, that is why I mentioned that the ARC amp was unable to act as a voltage source on the particular speaker of the anecdote.
With regards to the latter, please re-read the article. This is nothing whatsoever to do with sources.

The article has nothing to do with sources but that is incorrect and in fact should be!

You state for example SETs hence why I stated what I stated.
 

Atmasphere

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The article has nothing to do with sources but that is incorrect and in fact should be!

You state for example SETs hence why I stated what I stated.
It sounds to me as if you've missed the point.

Here it is again: If the amplifier has a high output impedance, you may have to move the speaker a bit to optimize it in the room.

Its not about system synergies otherwise.
 

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