Your All Time Favorite Preamplifiers?

Iv heard systems that are overly rolled off (warmish sounding), too Round, too smooth and too slow. Some call that Musical! and natural. I find that boing it does not have the speed, dynamics and attack to keep you excited rather, it's a sleeping pill system.,

Some have been analytical, which to some extent has been grainy or hard or edgy or all that's been said but with fatigue, it seems brighter or more transparent but in fact its not and causes you to turn down the volume more often.

Personally, to me I feel something musical is when your attention is away from the electronics; your no longer analyse the musical playback but just feel emotionally drawn into it. You're no longer observing how the system plays, but you are being involved with the music.

Everyone listens differently, but i guess with experience and time, some people realise the overly warm sounding gear tends not to feel as real as one really wants. Balancing the system can be tricky and can actually take time.


The current System I have flows with music in the room as if it's floating in midair with no holdbacks, no compression or feeling it's being pushed onto you no fatigue no artificial sweetness. The Ear Gives up well before the speaker and system runs out of juice. High Volumes don't feel loud or annoying.

Any genre of music is not a problem it can handle anything you throw at it with aplomb.

I don't like forward sounding systems that feel it's being pushed onto your face

analogsa said:

No argument here. Choosing an active preamp that does not really mess up transparency is darn difficult. Yet, many seem happy to trade ultimate transparency for a bit more musicality. Does it always need to be a tradeoff between the two?

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The MP-1 is transparent to the core, yet its a very musical pre-amp. It is also very sensitive to tubes and setup so it does take some time to dial it in with the right tubes and upstream gear. The rewards are promising for decades if done right.

Atmasphere said:

A passive system can be too simple- and is an't support the balanced standard. So you're stuck having to audition cables, often running shorter distances and having to carefully watch impedances to make sure the source can drive the amplifier properly with the passive inserted. Its simply too simple.

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Ralph- thanks ( again ) for presenting the technical requirements of the balanced line standard.

1) Sometimes passive solutions are made "balanced", by having an additional deck on the switch ( or whatever device is being used for same purpose ). The goal here seems to be to 'insert' the passive attenuator as a part of the interconnect wiring between the source and amp, with the amp performing the balanced receiver function, right? Is the problem here that the attenuator is not low impedance?

2) If a passive preamp attempted to be 'balanced', not as described above, but instead by having transformers on input and output, wired to the balanced line standard, but no active circuitry, is the problem again that the attenuator is high impedance? Or that the source is being asked to 'drive' a series of, in this case, three transformers ( passive in, passive out, amp in )?

Solypsa said:

1) Sometimes passive solutions are made "balanced", by having an additional deck on the switch ( or whatever device is being used for same purpose ). The goal here seems to be to 'insert' the passive attenuator as a part of the interconnect wiring between the source and amp, with the amp performing the balanced receiver function, right? Is the problem here that the attenuator is not low impedance?

2) If a passive preamp attempted to be 'balanced', not as described above, but instead by having transformers on input and output, wired to the balanced line standard, but no active circuitry, is the problem again that the attenuator is high impedance? Or that the source is being asked to 'drive' a series of, in this case, three transformers ( passive in, passive out, amp in )?

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In the case of the former, IME its the wiring that is the problem. When a volume control is implemented, its really nice to have it close to the active circuit its driving! If the control is low impedance, many sources might have trouble driving it.

In the latter case, I can see the input side of that working if you are careful about the match between the transformer and the control. But on the output side you have a problem: transformers transform impedance and any transformer must be properly loaded to prevent ringing (distortion). To implement a transformer at the output, the load on the transformer has to change when the source (in this case, the wiper of the control) changes. That could get tricky if the input impedance of the amp is not known, as if the variable loading itself were not tricky enough.

Phantom-Audio said:

Balancing the system can be tricky and can actually take time.

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Totally agree, designs that get everything right have a philosophy biased toward subjective appreciation. Those involved designing and soldering might as example be well versed in listening to live acoustic music, as well as having ability of comparison to best available recordings. This can take considerable time I would estimate 20 years is a good estimate to acquire the necessary skills. Some gifted musicians though take far less time to get there, their hearing often from the age of 5 or 6 is proving they are in tune with their hearing, by prompting skill with playing instruments.

On the other hand we see entire forums discussing objective outlooks, totally devoid of this essential listening experience, I put it down to these forums appealing instead to the visual sense we have. You will typically see popular colors like red yellow being used to entice objective measurements.... one might as well move to the moon as to its distance from our true hearing ability.

In tandem with these we often see little recognition of parameters essential to our ability, namely extended bandwidth. The worst of these, yet a very popular forum plainly measure equipment wrongly and claim excellent figures. One I recall measured a passive volume control at full volume - in effect testing nothing of the attenuators ability rather they just tested internal wiring, yet viewers of this nonsense took away that the forum presented valid information. At other times this same forum continuously measures equipment at 12.9 x line level, thankfully the standard of consumer or professional line level is not influenced by this. We momentarily saw what might occur with the infamous Loudness wars.

Atmasphere said:

A passive system can be too simple- and is highly system dependent. You have to be very careful about cables, output impedances of sources and input impedances of amps. A common problem is anything less than full volume results in a loss of impact, frequently more noticeable in the bass.

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The history of this is the early adoption by mass production industry of volume controls with what only just works. What only just works is totally unrelated to music reproduction . Although some designs were pencilled in in the 1800's , a great reference is to read the patents and publication of Mary Hallock Greenewalt particularly her patent for the rheostat in 1919

But to your comments, passive systems do not have to be simple, like the inventions of last and previous centuries, rather we can enjoy broadening our approach, with reference to L pads to have a separate curve for shunt resistance and a separate curve for series. We can also drive any given cable, and enjoy the benefit different cables bring.

My own passive LDR system as example has a black silence noise floor, and uses a 5 metre interconnect to mono power amps located close to my loudspeakers, I enjoy music reproduction as if the musicians were in the room., it is utterly faithful to the recordings I enjoy.

Light Dependant Resistor said:

We can also drive any given cable, and enjoy the benefit different cables bring.

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Seriously, if you hear differences in cables, there is only one conclusion:

Even if one sounds better than the other, both are wrong.

This is because next year, that manufacturer will have a newer version of that cable that works better; failing that someone else will. Better, IMO, to not have those pesky interconnect cable interactions at all! The place you really need to get it right is the tonearm cable; no matter how good everything is downstream you won't be able to fix a deficiency in the cable at that point. Since the phono cartridge is a balanced source the solution is obvious.

Atmasphere said:

Seriously, if you hear differences in cables, there is only one conclusion:

Even if one sounds better than the other, both are wrong.

This is because next year, that manufacturer will have a newer version of that cable that works better; failing that someone else will. Better, IMO, to not have those pesky interconnect cable interactions at all! The place you really need to get it right is the tonearm cable; no matter how good everything is downstream you won't be able to fix a deficiency in the cable at that point. Since the phono cartridge is a balanced source the solution is obvious.

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Not a issue if as i do, if you make your own.

Atmasphere said:

Even if one sounds better than the other, both are wrong.

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Particularly when they are not connected

Light Dependant Resistor said:

Particularly when they are not connected

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And even if they are. Sort of a 'damned if you do...' sort of thing.

LL21 said:

Did I know that you now have the L10? (I may have and even commented elsewhere some time ago...apologies if I forgot...congrats! Great news! Listening notes relative to L1 (which is still listed in your signature block by the way)...and relative to K15EX?

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Hi Lloyd,

Good to hear from you.

I wish I could answer your question with some validity. But unfortunately, my system was very different when I had the k15-EX. Making any comparison other than in a very general sense is just so difficult, at least for me, when so much time has elapsed and the systems are so different.

I can tell you that my current system has now reached a level of natural emotional connection that is significantly higher than it has ever been before.

But that is due to a number of synergistic changes that have had a cumulative significant reduction in the system noise, but which occurred way after I sold the K15-EX.

I can also tell you, however, that the K15EX is one of the few components I’ve regretted selling - Believe me, I would love to have the K15-EX in my system now to compare it with the L10 - another very special piece.

Unfortunately, nothing, no matter what its design methodology, nothing approaches a straight wire with gain.

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I have a question. What does this mean?

What is straight wire with gain?

If it has gain isn't it an active preamp?

If I can only attenuate the signal there is no gain only reducing the signal. There is no manipulation other that the alloys used in the path.

I'm not a fan other than volume control (LESS) power amps. I like the color a good preamp brings to my systems. Connections paths, gain stages and tone control. If I can't have the music produced the way my ears like it, what's the answer? Change it.

My ears are to give ME pleasure. I'm not a huge fan of follow the leader, but I do follow some basic principals, "To thine own ears be true". At almost 70, I better be able to change the way things sound.

For the first time in my life, I've noticed I can't hear as well as I use to in one ear. Thank God for L/R volume control. I can turn up or down certain frequencies per channel. Is that a no no too? My ears say other wise..

I use a preamp for one thing, to color the sound. Did I say that out loud?

I have a question? Do people use the tone control in their cars (transportation)? I do.

Regards

oldhvymec said:

Unfortunately, nothing, no matter what its design methodology, nothing approaches a straight wire with gain.

Last edited: Apr 18, 2022

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I have a question. What does this mean?

What is straight wire with gain?

Click to expand...

It is a folklore quoted saying, inferring that gain causes unwanted distortion, and it would be preferable if a straight wire just had amplifying capability.

It though is quaintly possible. if we use instead the word maintain instead of gain, the first of these, the electronics property of negative resistance, permits where there is an increase in voltage, a decrease in electrical current. Secondly ( not to tried at home ) there are properties called super conductors where a electric current can persist having been established through a loop. lacking a ongoing power source.

oldhvymec said:

Last edited: Apr 18, 2022

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If it has gain isn't it an active preamp?

Click to expand...

As we know the source component contains the best audio possible, the effort many would say ( me included )is to do everything possible to preserve that capability. Electrical resistance presently is the electronics principle that exhibits no adverse loss to audio signal, objectively we can measure to see nothing has changed other than its level. Subjectively there are differences though with different materials, and ways contacts are removed from signal paths. There are vast differences when we can independently change the relationship of the series element to the shunt element with a passive L pad

Thankfully for everything other than phono, the audio industry complies with known levels, making adding gain (which results in adding distortion ) unnecessary. The quest for audiophiles is to firstly know about these levels, and to ensure your partnering equipment has similar attributes. A large part of this is for your power amp(s) to have the same sensitivity as consumer line level, or professional line level if that is the equipment you use. You can then be rid of components adding coloration other than resistive attenuation, between your source and power amp .

oldhvymec said:

If I can only attenuate the signal there is no gain only reducing the signal. There is no manipulation other that the alloys used in the path.

Click to expand...

Yes true, however we need to be aware that when we use anything other than resistance for attenuation, it can result in adding signal returning to the circuit a quarter wave later than it should. a unwanted property called reactance, which also detracts from available current. The unwanted reactance property adds coloration to otherwise pristine audio. A quick review of schematic diagrams will show you how many components are interfering adding reactance. As example capacitors when used in signal paths, used widely for blocking preceding DC are a reactance component.

oldhvymec said:

There is no manipulation other that the alloys used in the path.

Click to expand...

Not in the case of contactless methods of attenuation such as audio purpose LDR's here any change of how the device is powered, results in vast subjective difference. The method for best audio with LDR's is to have a relatively short path for the series element powering and a much longer path for the shunt, one never should directly ground the internal LED cathode, rather similarly semiconductor distance it too from the supply.

Not all resistance methods use alloys, as example LDR's and jfet devices arranged as voltage controlled resistors

oldhvymec said:

I'm not a fan other than volume control (LESS) power amps. I like the color a good preamp brings to my systems. Connections paths, gain stages and tone control. If I can't have the music produced the way my ears like it, what's the answer? Change it.

My ears are to give ME pleasure. I'm not a huge fan of follow the leader, but I do follow some basic principals, "To thine own ears be true". At almost 70, I better be able to change the way things sound.

For the first time in my life, I've noticed I can't hear as well as I use to in one ear. Thank God for L/R volume control. I can turn up or down certain frequencies per channel. Is that a no no too? My ears say other wise..

I use a preamp for one thing, to color the sound. Did I say that out loud?

Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining your individual preference choice.

oldhvymec said:

I have a question? Do people use the tone control in their cars (transportation)? I do.

Regards

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Not for me, all eyes and ears to the road, although quiet music in the background , can be soothing.

Atmasphere said:

Seriously, if you hear differences in cables, there is only one conclusion:

Even if one sounds better than the other, both are wrong.

This is because next year, that manufacturer will have a newer version of that cable that works better; failing that someone else will. Better, IMO, to not have those pesky interconnect cable interactions at all! The place you really need to get it right is the tonearm cable; no matter how good everything is downstream you won't be able to fix a deficiency in the cable at that point. Since the phono cartridge is a balanced source the solution is obvious.

Click to expand...

That applies to everything. All products improve as the manufacturer researches and tests.

My favourite pre amp was the Audio research ref 5se , utterly real and sadly missed . the bel canto pre amps are not as good but they are very enjoyable too and a lot cheaper

Light Dependant Resistor said:

It is a folklore quoted saying, inferring that gain causes unwanted distortion, and it would be preferable if a straight wire just had amplifying capability.

It though is quaintly possible. if we use instead the word maintain instead of gain, the first of these, the electronics property of negative resistance, permits where there is an increase in voltage, a decrease in electrical current. Secondly ( not to tried at home ) there are properties called super conductors where a electric current can persist having been established through a loop. lacking a ongoing power source.




As we know the source component contains the best audio possible, the effort many would say ( me included )is to do everything possible to preserve that capability. Electrical resistance presently is the electronics principle that exhibits no adverse loss to audio signal, objectively we can measure to see nothing has changed other than its level. Subjectively there are differences though with different materials, and ways contacts are removed from signal paths. There are vast differences when we can independently change the relationship of the series element to the shunt element with a passive L pad

Thankfully for everything other than phono, the audio industry complies with known levels, making adding gain (which results in adding distortion ) unnecessary. The quest for audiophiles is to firstly know about these levels, and to ensure your partnering equipment has similar attributes. A large part of this is for your power amp(s) to have the same sensitivity as consumer line level, or professional line level if that is the equipment you use. You can then be rid of components adding coloration other than resistive attenuation, between your source and power amp .



Yes true, however we need to be aware that when we use anything other than resistance for attenuation, it can result in adding signal returning to the circuit a quarter wave later than it should. a unwanted property called reactance, which also detracts from available current. The unwanted reactance property adds coloration to otherwise pristine audio. A quick review of schematic diagrams will show you how many components are interfering adding reactance. As example capacitors when used in signal paths, used widely for blocking preceding DC are a reactance component.



Not in the case of contactless methods of attenuation such as audio purpose LDR's here any change of how the device is powered, results in vast subjective difference. The method for best audio with LDR's is to have a relatively short path for the series element powering and a much longer path for the shunt, one never should directly ground the internal LED cathode, rather similarly semiconductor distance it too from the supply.

Not all resistance methods use alloys, as example LDR's and jfet devices arranged as voltage controlled resistors




Thanks for explaining your individual preference choice.


Not for me, all eyes and ears to the road, although quiet music in the background , can be soothing.

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Thanks for the information. I'm a BIG ol sponge. Retirement is great but it is nice to have others with like minded interest and that are willing to share.

I reference an audio system in a vehicle. LOL I was a mobile HD mechanic for over 30 years and a mechanic for over 50. I try to stay out of anything that has wheels.

I know I BACKED up 100,000 miles. 2+ million on the road going forward. I had ONE incident in ALL those years. It dented a Beauty ring on a front steer tire of a 12 ton service unit.

Preamps.. What can I say. I've been a Mcintosh fan from birth. My father was WD, Thoren, Mac and a BIG JBL fan.

I have a house full of vintage Mac equipment. I can honestly say the older the better.

A Mcintosh C20 VIII is my go to flavor in a colorful preamp. I (ME) can make it do what ever I need all on it's own.. I own a few that are modified for ME. I'm NOT a purest, I guess.

I guess for a lack of better terms, I don't follow any trend. I started with a faceplate full of knobs and switches and I guess I'll keep using them until I forget how.. Sooner than later it seems..

I do like a couple of Cary products I use. SLP-05 is rather nice. My wife uses a C2500 she loves it. Her father was a Marantz guy ALL the way.. I have a few of his analog pieces. 7C, 7T, Thirty Three and a 3300.

Small planars and ribbons, valves, buttons and knobs all keep me interested. The neighbor lady ain't bad either, SHE likes music and she brings me angle food cake. Cary fan too. She likes the "RED" paint and the way it sounds.. She does have one lovely ear. The other ear looks like a hub cap on a semi truck.

Thanks for the information though. What a great forum. I haven't been on social media much. AG kind of soured me. So nice to see people with manners and forum management to encourage free and open information without being made fun of. I like MAC. I like terriers, rabbits, and slower women too. The goat I have, that's an ongoing hot topic here. He (the goat) ate my hat. MY personal 130 year old beaver/Mercury cured hat. It was uncalled for. I think it was personal. Dumb GOAT. Lawn mower duty.

Regards

Favorite I’ve owned is the BAT Rex 2 I have now
Favorite I’ve heard is Boulder 2110 or CH L1 … still saving my pennies! LOL

I think my old Emotive Audio Epifania would be my favorite were it not for it being sans remote.
Prior to that, an Allnic L5000 DHT was very nice, though slightly more coloration than the Epifania that replaced it.
The jury is out on the Veloce LS1 that I'm using now. I like its particular set of colorations a lot, and the battery operation really does provide a stark contrast between musical images and background nothingness
My bucket list calls for an Einstein preamp and an Atma-Sphere, though other system change priorities stand in the way.

rooze said:

I think my old Emotive Audio Epifania would be my favorite were it not for it being sans remote.
Prior to that, an Allnic L5000 DHT was very nice, though slightly more coloration than the Epifania that replaced it.
The jury is out on the Veloce LS1 that I'm using now. I like its particular set of colorations a lot, and the battery operation really does provide a stark contrast between musical images and background nothingness
My bucket list calls for an Einstein preamp and an Atma-Sphere, though other system change priorities stand in the way.

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The Epifania is an excellent preamp by any measure even if it has been around a few years. I have a custom version of the Epifania that uses a solid state regulated supply instead of the six VR tubes. It has a very neutral tonal balance. In fact, it is almost indistinguishable from my EMIA Elmaformer which is what I mostly use these days due to its simplicity.

Salectric said:

The Epifania is an excellent preamp by any measure even if it has been around a few years. I have a custom version of the Epifania that uses a solid state regulated supply instead of the six VR tubes. It has a very neutral tonal balance. In fact, it is almost indistinguishable from my EMIA Elmaformer which is what I mostly use these days due to its simplicity.

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Wow, I need to hear this thing. I've never even heard of Epifania prior to this thread. The Elmaformer has been a mainstay in my system for years though.

The best I've heard and now own is the Zesto Audio Leto Ultra II fully balanced. There are many more expensive preamps I haven't heard.

My favorite preamp is the Aesthetix Métis. They are making one for me now. Can’t wait…..