Jonathan Valin’s TAS Review of MBL X-Tremes
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
I will have to agree with you on that. A 4' wide violinist is not real or natural. Some folks like it, they just are not for me.
Tom
Yes; you are in the group that does not find them relentless or fatiguing. I totally understand and respect your amazement with them.
I think the REL 212SE is fantastic! Purely out of curiosity how did you choose this particular REL model over the No. 25, or perhaps over stacked G1s?
The hologram created by the MBL's properly set up is not "carved out". It can be extremely realistic, with plenty of 3D - IMHO people also refer to holograph because this 3D effect keeps when you move - you can "see" the scene from a wide listening zone.
Ron, I came across a mint condition 212E for a great deal.
Also read a lot of good reviews on this sub.
So I guess it was a financial decision too.
The 25 would have been great if I found a deal.
Most of my equipment was bought this way in order to afford them!
Thanks,
Gregg
I actually think "Yoda" Valin's first review of the MBL Xtreme is better. Why?
One simple quote that helps guide the music lovers, people who want to enjoy the music they enjoy on high end equipment, vs. the majority audiophiles who listen to audiophile music and sounds and noises and hifi vocabulary- because that is the only thing their hifi systems excel at.
Here's the "Yoda" Valin at his best, and I am not sure I have better quote from any audio reviewer:
"Sheer sonic excitement may not mean much to those joyless souls who want to hear a second-rate jazz vocalist or a third-rate performance of a Mahler symphony sound precisely as good or as bad as it did in the engineering booth on the day of a recording session; as for me, I still thrill to the thrill of getting goosebumps on my arms or feeling a chill run up my back when a stereo—a mere contraption playing back another mere contraption—captures the excitement of the real thing."
Now everyone has their personal goals in this hobby, but listening to Patricia Barber or Holly Cole for the 17th time in a week is not my thing. When I was getting seriously into the high end segment of this hobby and was told that the likes of Wilson, Pass Labs, Audio Research were the top dogs, while all I could perceive from these brands was sounds, audiophile vocabulary, and ability to only sound well on the best recordings, I'd wonder about all of these audiophiles (and still do). I found the MBL brand was exactly what I was looking for to experience the music I enjoy in its full glory.
And I never imagined I could be as happy as I am with MBL.
One simple quote that helps guide the music lovers, people who want to enjoy the music they enjoy on high end equipment, vs. the majority audiophiles who listen to audiophile music and sounds and noises and hifi vocabulary- because that is the only thing their hifi systems excel at.
Here's the "Yoda" Valin at his best, and I am not sure I have better quote from any audio reviewer:
"Sheer sonic excitement may not mean much to those joyless souls who want to hear a second-rate jazz vocalist or a third-rate performance of a Mahler symphony sound precisely as good or as bad as it did in the engineering booth on the day of a recording session; as for me, I still thrill to the thrill of getting goosebumps on my arms or feeling a chill run up my back when a stereo—a mere contraption playing back another mere contraption—captures the excitement of the real thing."
Now everyone has their personal goals in this hobby, but listening to Patricia Barber or Holly Cole for the 17th time in a week is not my thing. When I was getting seriously into the high end segment of this hobby and was told that the likes of Wilson, Pass Labs, Audio Research were the top dogs, while all I could perceive from these brands was sounds, audiophile vocabulary, and ability to only sound well on the best recordings, I'd wonder about all of these audiophiles (and still do). I found the MBL brand was exactly what I was looking for to experience the music I enjoy in its full glory.
And I never imagined I could be as happy as I am with MBL.
As for brightness, yes, MBLs can be very bright in the wrong situation. They are very, very, very, very transparent to everything in the chain, including wires. Many solid state amps also sound lean with MBLs, as they can't deliver the current the speakers need....
But even with the proper pairing equipment, there needs to be a proper amount of absorptive and reflective elements in the room. And , of course, there is the element of personal taste / acclimation to one type of sound over another.
But in my system they are not bright, but perfectly balanced... Actually just the thought of Lyra cartridges, beryllium tweeters - like the old Wilson tweeter (that reviewers complained about only after Wilson changed their tweeter to silk) , many box speakers with solid state amps - all make me want to cover my ears, as I type this. But Wilsons and Lyra are some of the most popular brands in this hobby...
Again, we all get acclimated to a certain sound and judge everything else from that perspective.
But even with the proper pairing equipment, there needs to be a proper amount of absorptive and reflective elements in the room. And , of course, there is the element of personal taste / acclimation to one type of sound over another.
But in my system they are not bright, but perfectly balanced... Actually just the thought of Lyra cartridges, beryllium tweeters - like the old Wilson tweeter (that reviewers complained about only after Wilson changed their tweeter to silk) , many box speakers with solid state amps - all make me want to cover my ears, as I type this. But Wilsons and Lyra are some of the most popular brands in this hobby...
Again, we all get acclimated to a certain sound and judge everything else from that perspective.
Why systematically denigrating audiophiles in an audiophile forum? IMHO the great majority of audiophiles are music lovers and just a few listen to just audiophile music sounds and noises. And sometimes we audiophiles listen repeated times to a specific recording not for enjoyment, but just for diagnostic purposes - it is part of the hobby.
BTW, it would be great if you could make a real list of what you consider audiophile music - or do you consider that all recordings listen in HP list are audiophile recordings?
We all want different things in this hobby. I am not interested in wasting time and money on things I am not interested. Life is too short. And I do not appreciated being misled by others instead of honestly stating the tradeoffs, per the "Yoda" Valin quote. Honesty and integrity make a better hobby, and there is very little of that in this hobby, as guys constantly push their tastes on everyone else.
As to audiophile music, go to an audio show and check out what they play. Or go to several dealers and check out their streaming playlists....
Not a great way to attract people who are interested in enjoying the music they like to this hobby
Although I agree with you than that many solid state amps sound lean on MBL, I think it is not the current delivery problem - they sound lean even at low volumes when the current is very low, and besides such problem would be easily shown in measurements. The question is much more complex than that and could be an interesting topic.
True and known since long ...
Yes, our own systems are always perfected balanced, it is why you need to write about brands others own and like. Individual pieces of equipment do not make me want to cover my ears, although poorly assembled and tuned systems can.
Hello caesar,
A) As a general observation:
Music is the most quintessential personification of a true TEACHER. You often use excessive, dogmatic and vitriolic language to denigrate both people and equipment. Hasn't MUSIC - the highest form of existence - taught you anything about self-restrain and suppressing your hubris?!
B) A specific response:
If you are "still wondering about all of these audiophiles" ( and most likely feeling sorry for them ), let me shake you out of your deep presumptuous slumber. I can only speak about Pass Labs and I will never even mention, let alone denigrate manufacturers, if anything, for respecting the notion of "synergy". Are you not a mature, experienced audiophile?
According to you, from Pass Labs you only perceive sounds and they only sound well on the best recordings. You proclaim these with such certitude, authority and absolutism. I am not a neophyte and a fledgeling in this hobby and I can tell you that your views are baseless and border on being incongruous to the point of questioning your true motives for such biased, shallow and broad generalisations.
I can only speak for the smaller-powered XA30.8 ( matched exquisitely with a dedicated Leben Linestage with variable gain ), which I use to drive the Martin Logan CLXs. Your claims are rendered non-sensical and puerile every time that I listen to this combination. At the time, I had compared this amplifier to 8 others, some costing 3 times more with triple the power output! Other audiophiles will provide similar responses about the brands that you so dismissively denigrate. And, please, don't use this cop-out excuse of "audiophile \ best recordings" to supposedly add credence to your claims. Surely an experienced listener like you can do better than that!
Whilst you are entitled to your opinions, I object to your fallacious, superficial generalisations which often border on self-promoting controversy and notoriety.
Music's omnipotence as a teacher is its ability to instil in our conscience the most human and humane virtues. We should always be mindful of humility and sincere self-reflection - as vehicles for self-improvement - every time we listen to our systems, regardless of our prejudices and hasty dismissals.
Now, dear caesar, imagine if your beloved Valin wrote all of this!!! Response please.
I listen, always learning. Cheers and be well, Kostas.
Hi Microstrip,
Thanks, but I am not sure the point of your post. Most MBL people do not hang out on forums. They would find information about the speaker via a google search. Someone above claimed the speaker was bright, and I was clarifying the situations it can be bright and what can be done to alleviate brightness so people can properly make decisions for themselves.
Hi Kostas,
High end audio is a subjective, experiential, luxury hobby. I am sincerely thrilled you found your bliss in this hobby!
During my search, I found pass labs awful, in most systems. But our tastes obviously differ. And since I also own stats, I would never run them with such a low powered amp such as yours. But I am glad you are enjoying your system.
In my case, I wasted precious time on hyped up gear during my search that I can never get back. If guys in this industry were honest and forthcoming about the differences and tradeoffs in gear, this industry would be much better off.. but instead we have a lot misinformation....
As for Valin, I used to be very hard on him when he was claiming that the Magico Q series was the BEST speaker on the planet. Now that he is honestly comparing gear, I think he is a great asset. (For the same reason, so is Fremer, and his and my tastes are polar opposites (Lyra, Wilson with solid state, dcs, etc.)
Finally, if you don't like what I have to say, ignore is your friend.
Enjoy your system!
Hi Adyc,
I run them bi-amped with Symphonic Line Kraft. Although I find the MBL amps are some of the best SS amps there are, I find the Kraft amps less hifi sounding and more organic. And bi-amping the speaker delivers near-horn dynamics. I also use a CAT tubed preamp for extra emotion. And I still love MBL digital, despite the best DAC of the month flavors coming all the time from the mis-incentivized Neil Grobbers/ "audio journalists".
Just because you are not able to understand someone and feel you are mislead does not mean he is not honest and integer. People should know that the high-end can't be ruled by Consumer Reports lists and an high-end review can be at best a source of knowledge and an invitation to listen.
Thanks for writing a vague and ambiguous comment, carefully avoiding a firm answer. Vague denigrating is always easier and safer. My facts - I am not a Patricia Barber fan, it is not my preferred type of music. However a good friend brought a CD recording of it (a gold MFSL, I remember) and played it in my SoundLab's. It sounded extremely realistic, with an excellent ambiance and nuance, tangible with very good percussion and great transients. He was really moved with the performance, not the sound. However I have found that the same recording can sound boring and syrupy, as people say, in some systems.
I own a reasonable list of "audiophile recordings" - surely more than one hundred. I like listening to them sparingly and, although there are exceptions, find that most of them are excellent quality. When adequately played I believe they are an excellent way of bringing new people to this hobby.
Curious that you choose to focus part of your hostility in one brand designed by one integer designer that has an extremely transparent and helpful public presence in the net - Nelson Pass.
I often quote him about the high-end. See two of my past quotes in WBF
"If you are concerned that your power amplifier (or anything else for that matter)
is as objectively and technically accurate as possible,
that is a perfectly legitimate criterion. You will certainly find many
products in the marketplace that excel at conventional objective
performance, and most of them are much cheaper.
Our real customers care most about the experience they get when
they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we
like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste. "
"In the end, the subjective experience is what our customer is looking for. Our taste in sound may not appeal to everyone, but it's what we have to work with, and we only need a small segment of the market to be successful. "
IMHO part of your limitation is due to fact that you still did not understand the fundamentals of stereo sound reproduction and how the high-end articulates with stereo. You systematically try applying your knowledge on human psychology and behavior to a subject you basically do not master.
Hello caesar,
Once again, you resort to evasive obfuscation,,,,,,"I found pass labs awful, in most systems" you say dismissingly, without providing any substance.
Then....."I would never run them with such a low powered amp such as yours", you declare with certitude! Obviously you came, heard my system in its totality and advise me in an almost admonishing fashion. I really admire your telepathic powers.
..."if you don't like what I have to say, ignore is your friend" ( just like you ignored the Valins of this world all these years ), you tell me as to immune yourself from any counter-argument or criticism, on a topic ( Pass Labs ) and a specific model which I know experientially and which I compared to 8 other amplifiers, two with 240 and 300 watts and which SHUT DOWN on four occasions! Ignoring can prolong and reinforce ignorance and therefore should be NOONE'S friend. Your axe against Pass Labs ( and other manufacturers ) needed to be blunted, if anything for our own conscience.
No malice; be well, Kostas.
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