CD Transport vs Music Server

taww · Aug 22, 2021

Not totally analogous, but streaming is still early in its maturity and might be comparable to CD vs vinyl 20 years ago. You could get great CD sound but it still felt like you had to get a bit lucky with the setup and/or shell out a lot of money. (Let’s put aside the fact that people are dusting off their 30 year old NOS players now. No one is gonna do that for an old Intel NUC in 20 years!) Meanwhile, vinyl had already been reliably musical for generations. But we still used CD because of the catalog and the convenience, and the sound was still pretty good. similarly there’s no beating the convenience of streaming - I listen to music at least 4x more because of it. So I’ll still do the majority of my playback on it, but as others have said I might re-invest a bit in CD and wait-and-see with streaming. Certainly $10k on a server seems like a poor investment - not to criticize those who do, it’s all about the ROI for you personally. In my case it probably isn’t high enough and I have other things to spend money on.

But I certainly look forward to the time when streaming effortlessly surpasses CD in SQ.

CKKeung · Aug 22, 2021

taww said:
Fascinating conversation. I have neither an optimized server (a lowly Intel NUC running ROCK) nor a great transport but had left my CDs in storage for the last few years. I recently pulled out a cheap Pioneer Blu-Ray to try an old CD, Reiner/CSO Mahler 4 on XRCD. It didn’t even work at first - I couldn’t open the tray, so I popped the top and figured out that the flimsy plastic bridge that suspends the disc clamp had sagged and the clamp wasn’t letting go when the transport dropped to open the tray. I literally bent the plastic and held it there for a while to reform it, and voila it worked again. I hooked up an old silver coax cable from Monarchy Audio to the RME DAC (then later the PS Audio), popped in the CD and sat back with zero expectation.

I was absolutely floored by how amazing CD sounded. Easily the best sound I have ever heard in my system. My wife was also shocked how vivid and full of life it was. My steaming setup has never sounded like that, even with hi-res. So now I am scouring for CDs and transports again. I picked up an old Sony DVP-S7000 that was pretty good back in the day, but it didn’t sound nearly as good as the crap Pioneer Blu-Ray player, strangely enough. I’m not sure I’m ready to pony up for something like the MBL but I’m certainly intrigued now. I agree with @Theburbster that I’d rather throw money into a transport than a crazy server/streamer, assuming the former is supported by a reputable manufacturer that will be around a while. Computers depreciate to virtually nothing in a matter of several years whereas transports will only get rarer. I may look into the new PS Audio transport.

Hi taww,
If you have a PS Audio dac already, their PerfectWave SACD Transport is a very good choice.

Review: PS Audio PerfectWave SACD Transport: A Different Story - Twittering Machines

Michael Lavorgna's Twittering Machines: HiFi with a twist

twitteringmachines.com

If you want a lower price cd transport, the Denafrip Avatar must be the best-buy!

Avatar

6moons.com

taww · Aug 22, 2021

CKKeung said:
Hi taww,
If you have a PS Audio dac already, their PerfectWave SACD Transport is a very good choice.

Review: PS Audio PerfectWave SACD Transport: A Different Story - Twittering Machines

Michael Lavorgna's Twittering Machines: HiFi with a twist

twitteringmachines.com

If you want a lower price cd transport, the Denafrip Avatar must be the best-buy!

Avatar

6moons.com

Hi CK - yes, the new PerfectWave does look very good. I'm inquiring about it now. The Denafrips looks intriguing as well. Given transports are mechanical devices that could require service at some point, I'm leaning towards an established marque here in North America, but there's no question Denafrips offers terrific value. If I end up doing a transport shootout, I'll seek it out.

charles1dad · Aug 23, 2021

Hello longing,
Three CD transports that are 'reasonably ' price and have received consistent pras

taww said:
Not totally analogous, but streaming is still early in its maturity and might be comparable to CD vs vinyl 20 years ago. You could get great CD sound but it still felt like you had to get a bit lucky with the setup and/or shell out a lot of money. (Let’s put aside the fact that people are dusting off their 30 year old NOS players now. No one is gonna do that for an old Intel NUC in 20 years!) Meanwhile, vinyl had already been reliably musical for generations. But we still used CD because of the catalog and the convenience, and the sound was still pretty good. similarly there’s no beating the convenience of streaming - I listen to music at least 4x more because of it. So I’ll still do the majority of my playback on it, but as others have said I might re-invest a bit in CD and wait-and-see with streaming. Certainly $10k on a server seems like a poor investment - not to criticize those who do, it’s all about the ROI for you personally. In my case it probably isn’t high enough and I have other things to spend money on. But I certainly look forward to the time when streaming effortlessly surpasses CD in SQ.

kinch · Aug 23, 2021

lesacre said:
We have had 3 transports in our showroom that are yet to be beaten by any streamer. Those are MBL 1621A, Jadis Calliope and Gryphon Ethos (although it’s a player, not a dedicated transport). The most compelling comparison was between MBL 1621A connected to MBL 1611F DAC via Stealth Octava-T AES/EBU cable and an absolutely brilliant Roon card inside the very same 1611F. The Roon card is incredible - Jürgen Reis of MBL used all his knowledge and expertise to make it sound close to his reference transport, and in all fairness, it does. And yet, 1621A came on top every single time.

I do realize that those transports alone cost more than most digital rigs based on streaming. Interestingly enough, they all have some version of the Philips CD Pro top loading transport mechanism.

Thanks for chiming in! I was afraid to post that my old school Jadis JD1 with the Philips Pro top loading transport hooked up to my CH C1/L1/X1 sounded far better than a Melco into the same CH...Correcting for volume as best as possible, driving my wife nuts on blind A/B testing etc. Cheers,

CKKeung · Aug 23, 2021

A raving review of the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 Transport :

Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 Transport

I have had a long history (thirty years), having highly-regarded CD transports in my systems to spin my vast collection of over 12,000 CDs. I have owned and enjoyed some of the most notable CD transports like the Mark Levinson 31.5, CEC TL1-TL2N, Ensemble Dirondo, Accustic Arts Drive 1, PS Audio...

v2.stereotimes.com

Terry London, the reviewer bought it!

LL21 · Aug 23, 2021

lesacre said:
We have had 3 transports in our showroom that are yet to be beaten by any streamer. Those are MBL 1621A, Jadis Calliope and Gryphon Ethos (although it’s a player, not a dedicated transport). The most compelling comparison was between MBL 1621A connected to MBL 1611F DAC via Stealth Octava-T AES/EBU cable and an absolutely brilliant Roon card inside the very same 1611F. The Roon card is incredible - Jürgen Reis of MBL used all his knowledge and expertise to make it sound close to his reference transport, and in all fairness, it does. And yet, 1621A came on top every single time.

I do realize that those transports alone cost more than most digital rigs based on streaming. Interestingly enough, they all have some version of the Philips CD Pro top loading transport mechanism.

I admit it has been some time since I have heard servers in the system or done shoot-outs...and digital changes by the day, certainly the year. But I really do like the Zanden transport with its matching DAC. And it also is the Philips Pro top loading design (Pro 2). Its officially the longest running component in the system (13 years with 1 interim upgrade during that time).

docvale · Aug 23, 2021

The LPs returned popular (i.e., outside of the audiophile niche) with the boom of computer based audio and the progressive disappearance of the CDs as physical format. It was the swap between an almost practical format (the CD) to a very unpractical one, yet full of pleasure coming from the ritual and the ownership of the item itself (I'm talking general market here, sound quality is not really relevant as a point...).

Shall we see a CD resurgence? Definitely they are cheap, despite the practical aspect of streaming+music libraries is hard to beat (specially if you are already hoarding vinyls for physical medium music).

All my CDs are in Italy, hence at ~5k miles from my house. I'd definitely not restart collecting them from scratch, yet - and that has been for quite a time - I'd love to have a Meridian transport in my system

Argonaut · Sep 11, 2021

CKKeung said:
A raving review of the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 Transport :

Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 Transport

I have had a long history (thirty years), having highly-regarded CD transports in my systems to spin my vast collection of over 12,000 CDs. I have owned and enjoyed some of the most notable CD transports like the Mark Levinson 31.5, CEC TL1-TL2N, Ensemble Dirondo, Accustic Arts Drive 1, PS Audio...

v2.stereotimes.com

Terry London, the reviewer bought it!

Most interesting...and quite a reasonable price even were one to follow the same or similar upgrade path as the reviewer.

microstrip · Oct 3, 2021

taww said:
Not totally analogous, but streaming is still early in its maturity and might be comparable to CD vs vinyl 20 years ago. (...)

IMHO streaming can't be considered early in its maturity - I think that some conveniences can be changed, but it is a stable format that delivers bit exact contents to our systems.

The large difference between CD and vinyl is due to the extra processing of vinyl cutting and playback - not comparable with streamer versus CD, that deliver the same information. IMHO some CD transports and mechanisms add a an wisely though and controlled jitter to the data stream that we enjoy and can prefer. I still miss the Metronome Calypso Reference transport and matching DAC for some recordings, although I acknowledge the dCS Vivaldi stack is more realistic. Just FIY, I have tried introducing an high quality jitter suppressor in series with the Metronome's and it killed the system and the beautiful Metronome transport unfortunately was not a good match with the Vivaldi.

Some streaming companies also sell the files they stream. I am curious to know if the people who prefer the physical CD's would prefer a CD burnt from these files to the streaming. Remember when we debated in WBF why CDs copied using a special type of burner sounded better than the originals?

hongkongfoufou · Oct 9, 2021

lesacre said:
We have had 3 transports in our showroom that are yet to be beaten by any streamer. Those are MBL 1621A, Jadis Calliope and Gryphon Ethos (although it’s a player, not a dedicated transport). The most compelling comparison was between MBL 1621A connected to MBL 1611F DAC via Stealth Octava-T AES/EBU cable and an absolutely brilliant Roon card inside the very same 1611F. The Roon card is incredible - Jürgen Reis of MBL used all his knowledge and expertise to make it sound close to his reference transport, and in all fairness, it does. And yet, 1621A came on top every single time.

I do realize that those transports alone cost more than most digital rigs based on streaming. Interestingly enough, they all have some version of the Philips CD Pro top loading transport mechanism.

I have listen Lumin as streamer. I am disappointed. The best streamer I heard is the Aurender A30.
I have an Esoteric K-03XS....it's DAC is beat by an old DAC...very funny...20 year's old....I would talk about the Mark Levinson N360S....
Search the error...
I prefer vinyl and never like streamer...but it's my personnal choice...

Addicted to hifi · Oct 9, 2021

hongkongfoufou said:
I have listen Lumin as streamer. I am disappointed. The best streamer I heard is the Aurender A30.
I have an Esoteric K-03XS....it's DAC is beat by an old DAC...very funny...20 year's old....I would talk about the Mark Levinson N360S....
Search the error...
I prefer vinyl and never like streamer...but it's my personnal choice...

I’m with you .I hate streaming.

scot · Oct 9, 2021

Hi longinc

I don’t own a music server but I do own a Jay’s Audio CDT2 MKII. They now offer a newer and better sounding MKIII version, which I will upgrade to at a later date.

One of my friends owns a high end Audio store (brick & mortar). Every time I go there and listen to anything digital, it’s always sourced from a music server. He sells many different name brands, Aurender, DCS, Berkeley and others. To my ears, none of them sound great. Sure, they sound super clean and of course there is a dead quiet noise floor. But, to my ears, they lack musicality.

The CD2MKII is built like a tank. Don’t let the fact that it’s built in China fool you. I’ve had it for about 3 years now without any problems. It weighs over 30 lbs and has all the outputs you would want.

In my opinion, if you’re looking at exploring new music, a music server is the way to go. They are a convenience. You get TIDAL and/or Qobuz and you’ve got millions of songs at the touch of a button. If you care about sound quality and musicality, I prefer a cd transport. Just my opinion.

I bought a very good digital cable (Black Cat Tron) and a great reasonably priced nos (non oversampling) dac (SW1X Audio dacIII). All I can say for sure is, I was very surprised at how good it sounds. I used to own an Esoteric KO1X CD player a few years ago (retail $20K) which had their best transport in it. That player was good but by no means was it great. It could sound hard at times and slightly aggressive. After about an hour it would beat you up and you just wanted to shut it off. Not so with the CD2MKII. The digital combo I have now has MUCH better musicality.I can listen to cd’s for 3, 4 or 5 hours at a time with no listener fatigue. It really opened up my eyes (and ears) to just how good a regular red book cd can sound. It also made me realize how important a well designed transport can be. The funniest thing is, how little is sells for, $2400.00 usd. Don’t let the price fool you either. The new MKIII sells for $2500.00 Usd. IMHO, it’s a tremendous value with outstanding performance. I hope that helps you. Take care.

Best regards
Scot

hongkongfoufou · Oct 10, 2021

scot said:
Hi longinc

I don’t own a music server but I do own a Jay’s Audio CDT2 MKII. They now offer a newer and better sounding MKIII version, which I will upgrade to at a later date.

One of my friends owns a high end Audio store (brick & mortar). Every time I go there and listen to anything digital, it’s always sourced from a music server. He sells many different name brands, Aurender, DCS, Berkeley and others. To my ears, none of them sound great. Sure, they sound super clean and of course there is a dead quiet noise floor. But, to my ears, they lack musicality.

The CD2MKII is built like a tank. Don’t let the fact that it’s built in China fool you. I’ve had it for about 3 years now without any problems. It weighs over 30 lbs and has all the outputs you would want.

In my opinion, if you’re looking at exploring new music, a music server is the way to go. They are a convenience. You get TIDAL and/or Qobuz and you’ve got millions of songs at the touch of a button. If you care about sound quality and musicality, I prefer a cd transport. Just my opinion.

I bought a very good digital cable (Black Cat Tron) and a great reasonably priced nos (non oversampling) dac (SW1X Audio dacIII). All I can say for sure is, I was very surprised at how good it sounds. I used to own an Esoteric KO1X CD player a few years ago (retail $20K) which had their best transport in it. That player was good but by no means was it great. It could sound hard at times and slightly aggressive. After about an hour it would beat you up and you just wanted to shut it off. Not so with the CD2MKII. The digital combo I have now has MUCH better musicality.I can listen to cd’s for 3, 4 or 5 hours at a time with no listener fatigue. It really opened up my eyes (and ears) to just how good a regular red book cd can sound. It also made me realize how important a well designed transport can be. The funniest thing is, how little is sells for, $2400.00 usd. Don’t let the price fool you either. The new MKIII sells for $2500.00 Usd. IMHO, it’s a tremendous value with outstanding performance. I hope that helps you. Take care.

Best regards
Scot

K-03XS has not the sound of the old Esoteric now. To have a very good sound with the Esoteric, I have worked the electricity : Isotek and power cable.
It depends system too and loudspeakers.
Best regards
Thanh-Binh

audioblazer · Oct 10, 2021

scot said:
Hi longinc

I don’t own a music server but I do own a Jay’s Audio CDT2 MKII. They now offer a newer and better sounding MKIII version, which I will upgrade to at a later date.

One of my friends owns a high end Audio store (brick & mortar). Every time I go there and listen to anything digital, it’s always sourced from a music server. He sells many different name brands, Aurender, DCS, Berkeley and others. To my ears, none of them sound great. Sure, they sound super clean and of course there is a dead quiet noise floor. But, to my ears, they lack musicality.

The CD2MKII is built like a tank. Don’t let the fact that it’s built in China fool you. I’ve had it for about 3 years now without any problems. It weighs over 30 lbs and has all the outputs you would want.

In my opinion, if you’re looking at exploring new music, a music server is the way to go. They are a convenience. You get TIDAL and/or Qobuz and you’ve got millions of songs at the touch of a button. If you care about sound quality and musicality, I prefer a cd transport. Just my opinion.

I bought a very good digital cable (Black Cat Tron) and a great reasonably priced nos (non oversampling) dac (SW1X Audio dacIII). All I can say for sure is, I was very surprised at how good it sounds. I used to own an Esoteric KO1X CD player a few years ago (retail $20K) which had their best transport in it. That player was good but by no means was it great. It could sound hard at times and slightly aggressive. After about an hour it would beat you up and you just wanted to shut it off. Not so with the CD2MKII. The digital combo I have now has MUCH better musicality.I can listen to cd’s for 3, 4 or 5 hours at a time with no listener fatigue. It really opened up my eyes (and ears) to just how good a regular red book cd can sound. It also made me realize how important a well designed transport can be. The funniest thing is, how little is sells for, $2400.00 usd. Don’t let the price fool you either. The new MKIII sells for $2500.00 Usd. IMHO, it’s a tremendous value with outstanding performance. I hope that helps you. Take care.

Best regards
Scot

Agree . I have Jay’s Transport as well but nothing beats vinyl in my rig so far . used to have aurender w20 + MSB select 1 . Sold the upgraded Select 2 without even listening to it . Maybe taiko extreme will be a different ball game but vinyl still rule as the King in my rig

scot · Oct 10, 2021

hi audioblazer

I agree, vinyl sounds better than any digital I’ve ever heard. The only source that’s better than vinyl is reel to reel.

I used to do the sound for friends of mine that had a band. When they would play out, I ran the board for their live gigs. They went into the studio to make a cd and I was lucky enough to go with them in hopes of learning as much as I could regarding miking technics and mixing and anything else I could pick up.

They were recoding the cd onto 2” analog tape. When I was in the control room listening to the playback of what they had just played, I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. That was the 1st time I’d ever experienced music played back on 2” tape recorded in a professional studio, I simply have never heard anything like it. It blew away any lp I’d ever heard. The dynamics were startling. The transparency and clarity were mind boggling and the bass was Stygian! So, if I had to list the hierarchy of formats regarding sound quality:

1. Reel to reel
2. Lp’s
3. Sacd’s
4 red book cd’s
5 streaming
6 mp3

Take care
Best regards
Scot

wil · Oct 10, 2021

Addicted to hifi said:
I’m with you .I hate streaming.

You might consider that you’ve perhaps never heard streaming on a system that’s designed to bring out the best from streaming? I have, and do, and given a good recording, streaming sound can be spectacular. Imo, the source matters more than anything— not so much how it’s played back.

audioblazer · Oct 10, 2021

scot said:
hi audioblazer

I agree, vinyl sounds better than any digital I’ve ever heard. The only source that’s better than vinyl is reel to reel.

I used to do the sound for friends of mine that had a band. When they would play out, I ran the board for their live gigs. They went into the studio to make a cd and I was lucky enough to go with them in hopes of learning as much as I could regarding miking technics and mixing and anything else I could pick up.

They were recoding the cd onto 2” analog tape. When I was in the control room listening to the playback of what they had just played, I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. That was the 1st time I’d ever experienced music played back on 2” tape recorded in a professional studio, I simply have never heard anything like it. It blew away any lp I’d ever heard. The dynamics were startling. The transparency and clarity were mind boggling and the bass was Stygian! So, if I had to list the hierarchy of formats regarding sound quality:

1. Reel to reel
2. Lp’s
3. Sacd’s
4 red book cd’s
5 streaming
6 mp3

Take care
Best regards
Scot

Agree . Has a Studer A80 . SQ still depends on the tapes & preamp for the R2R. My Bottlehead preamp is not doing a very good job for the bass region . Personally , my main playback is Vinyl . Have some good LPs. Is all abt the music esp 1 with good SQ

longinc · Oct 18, 2021

Thank you everyone for the great insights. Did anyone compare the Pro-ject CD Box RS2 vs the Jay's Audio CDt2-Mk3 vs PS Audio Perfect Wave SACD Transport? (I know Terry London compared the Pro-ject against the Jay's CDT2-MK2 but not sure whether there was ever a comparison with the MK3) And i am seeing some really good reviews pop up for the PS Audio (and they are running a promo at $3999 making it within $ ball park of the other 2 transports)

scot · Oct 19, 2021

Hi longinc

I’ve never heard the the Pro-ject cd box rs2 so I can’t comment on it.

Like I said in a previous post, I do own the Jay’s Audio CDT2 MK2 and I love it. I simply never realized how important a transport can be. A properly designed transport is incredibly important if you want great performance. The new Jays Audio MK3 transport is said to sound even better than the MK2. I was shocked at how good the CDT2 MK2 sounded. The MK3 now has an OCXO clock which claims less jitter, switchable 44.1kHz/176.4kHz upsampling, a dimmable display among other improvements. I would like to hear the newer MK3 and compare it to my MK2. It’s one of those deals where I like the sound quality of my MK2 so much, I would be afraid of blindly buying the upgrade board for $898.00 only to find out that the now discontinued MK2 sounds better. We all know that just because a product is new, doesn’t guarantee it’s better.

A friend of mine owns the new PS Audio perfect wave sacd transport with their matching dac running the newest software called “sunlight”. He uses the I2S on HDMI and the performance is quite good. The PS Audio has more features when compared to the Jay’s Audio. The most obvious being sacd playback and the ability to play Blu-ray Discs which I must admit would be nice. The CDT2 MK3 plays red book cd’s only. Although, I’ve always been a purist, I personally prefer a product that is designed to do one thing and one thing only. I’ve never been into those “Swiss Army knife” Audio products.

I would like to compare the CDT2 MK3 with the PS Audio sacd transport on a regular red book cd just for sound quality and see which one comes out on top. If all you need is to play red book cd and get great sound quality at a very reasonable price ($2498.00) the Jay’s Audio is going to be tough to beat. Good luck with whichever you choose. Take care.

Best regards
Scot

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