Does Magico have a "house sound", and if so, how would you describe it?

MadFloyd · Apr 20, 2021

andromedaaudio said:
Yes that model had good bass definition , i heard it at a dealer on top LP analogue and Octave tube amps
But coming home to my own system ,its like going from a monitor sound to a large floor stander sound impact wise .
Same official specs iin the bass basically but night day difference mine just crushes them like a fly

I'd like to hear your speakers.

morricab · Apr 20, 2021

MadFloyd said:
I have to say I agree with andromedaaudio observations. I've owned Magico V2, S5mk1, MPro and A5.

I sold my A5s last week. I couldn't get past what I perceived as a metallic coloration - at least with the electronics I was using. I really liked the bass in the S5Mk1s the best of any speaker I've ever owned.

That would be a showstopper for me!

andromedaaudio · Apr 20, 2021

MadFloyd said:
I'd like to hear your speakers.

Thanks yes .

They are only 27 K euros / second hand pair

PeterA · Apr 20, 2021

andromedaaudio said:
Yes that model had good bass definition , i heard it at a dealer on top LP analogue and Octave tube amps
But coming home to my own system ,its like going from a monitor sound to a large floor stander sound impact wise .
Same official specs iin the bass basically but night n day difference mine just crushes them like a fly

Are you a manufacturer? If so is this normal behavior for one manufacturer to denigrate the products of another manufacturer on a public forum? For someone in the industry, I think Rhapsody sets a good example by expressing the opinion that there are many good loudspeakers available and people buy the one they prefer.

andromedaaudio · Apr 20, 2021

andromedaaudio said:
Ps May be magico owners will suggest the other way around and say phenolic resin based cabinets colour the sound

Come on peter .
I think i gave magico/owners enough slack.

andromedaaudio said:
Very good construction / fit n finish

Brg hj

And by the way you started the thread, i didnt

HenryD · Apr 20, 2021

MadFloyd said:
I'm not pursuing speakers at the moment. The MPros are still in my main system and the A5s were for a second system which I put together... and have now abandoned.

Sorry to hear that. Can you share more information about the set-up?

MadFloyd · Apr 20, 2021

HenryD said:
Sorry to hear that. Can you share more information about the set-up?

As I mentioned it was a second system so I didn't go overboard.

I had an InnuOS music server, a Bricasti M3 DAC and a Luxman 509x Integrated. Room was untreated.

Sound was very detailed but thin and had a metallic quality. Had to listen at very low volumes as it was very fatiguing. I know my MPros can be chameleons and choice of electronics matters a lot but I couldn't go down that slipperly slope. I had purchased the A5s and Luxman based on hearing the Luxman with A3s (which apparently aren't as bright) and thought the combo sounded great.

DaveC · Apr 20, 2021

MadFloyd said:
As I mentioned it was a second system so I didn't go overboard.

I had an InnuOS music server, a Bricasti M3 DAC and a Luxman 509x Integrated. Room was untreated.

Sound was very detailed but thin and had a metallic quality. Had to listen at very low volumes as it was very fatiguing. I know my MPros can be chameleons and choice of electronics matters a lot but I couldn't go down that slipperly slope. I had purchased the A5s and Luxman based on hearing the Luxman with A3s (which apparently aren't as bright) and thought the combo sounded great.
View attachment 77214

I think it's obvious you didn't have enough toe-in...

Blackmorec · Apr 20, 2021

MadFloyd said:
As I mentioned it was a second system so I didn't go overboard.

I had an InnuOS music server, a Bricasti M3 DAC and a Luxman 509x Integrated. Room was untreated.

Sound was very detailed but thin and had a metallic quality. Had to listen at very low volumes as it was very fatiguing. I know my MPros can be chameleons and choice of electronics matters a lot but I couldn't go down that slipperly slope. I had purchased the A5s and Luxman based on hearing the Luxman with A3s (which apparently aren't as bright) and thought the combo sounded great.
View attachment 77214

Hey there MF,
If you‘re interested in discussing why you may have heard what you did, just say. I think there’re possibly a couple of good reasons. Curious about a few things;
What’s the black box next to the Innuos? What‘s the black box next to the AV stand? What’s behind the main’s plug. Anything special?

MadFloyd · Apr 20, 2021

DaveC said:
I think it's obvious you didn't have enough toe-in...

Haha. Yup, there's not much toe in that pic... although believe me I did try it...

MadFloyd · Apr 20, 2021

Blackmorec said:
Hey there MF,
If you‘re interested in discussing why you may have heard what you did, just say. I think there’re possibly a couple of good reasons. Curious about a few things;
What’s the black box next to the Innuos? What‘s the black box next to the AV stand? What’s behind the main’s plug. Anything special?

To the left of the InnuOS is the Bricasti DAC. To the right of the AV stand is a subwoofer (connected to a soundbar for the TV).

Nothing special with the electricity. Old outlets, no power conditioning, no fancy power cords.

rando · Apr 20, 2021

DaveC said:
I think it's obvious you didn't have enough toe-in...

... or two tons of steel plates to get rid of that thin metallic sound.

andromedaaudio · Apr 20, 2021

DaveC said:
I think it's obvious you didn't have enough toe-in...

May be madfloyd wanted to hear less tweeter in the overall balance .

Tweeters roll of considerably under a + - 30 degrees angle .
But its for every speaker design different .

Magico V3 / zanden 9500 /3000 Tw acoustics / koetsu diamond remains one the best demos i have heard .

But Magico Q 7 Zanden 9600 / 3000 no not for me lacks coherence .

M6 looks like a promising design with those 3 10 ,5 inch woofers .
Sealed boxes mostly sound lean and a lot of membrane surface in the bass can make up for that relatively speaking ,imo

HenryD · Apr 20, 2021

MadFloyd said:
To the left of the InnuOS is the Bricasti DAC. To the right of the AV stand is a subwoofer (connected to a soundbar for the TV).

Nothing special with the electricity. Old outlets, no power conditioning, no fancy power cords.

The A5s are extremely transparent, perhaps too much at their price point. I don't think that they are good candidates for the 'plug and play' system. As such, they will be susceptible to any electricity, room issues, etc. Too bad you didn't try them on your main system.

Blackmorec · Apr 20, 2021

MadFloyd said:
To the left of the InnuOS is the Bricasti DAC. To the right of the AV stand is a subwoofer (connected to a soundbar for the TV).

Nothing special with the electricity. Old outlets, no power conditioning, no fancy power cords.

Hi Floyd,
the problem here is definitely the loudspeaker. It is an exceptionally neutral and transparent design, so you really can’t afford to short change it when it comes to set-up. I hope you don't mind if i point out some of the shortcomings in this particular set-up.
The first thing are the carpet spikes combined with hardwood floor protectors. Essentially what this does is to leave the speakers entirely unanchored with each spike free to vibrate and move. This robs the system of large amounts of bass, in terms of amplitude, extension and resolution.
The next problem is in placing all the electronics on a flimsy AV stand with thin glass shelves which will resonate and ring and will transfer that characteristic to the music, making it glassy , mechanical and thin sounding. The large surface area of the tv will also transfer large amounts of vibrational energy into the stand, making the colouration worse.
Then there’s the fact that the tv is hugely reflective and will reflect sounds already reflected off the wall behind the listener. This will introduce strong late reflections, which will strongly interfere with the direct signals from the loudspeakers, causing smear and obscuring detail, which instead of detail is heard as correlated distortion in high energy, upper frequencies.
Combine the lack of bass from the speaker spikes with high levels of uncorrelated Hf reflections and you start getting the sounds you report, which will sound worse the louder it gets.
Next up is mains. You have the amp, server and DAC of a potentially high resolution system plugged into the basic household mains supply. This means your amp is potentially under supplied with instantaneous current. The supply line is broken and rejoined in every single light switch, so your mains supply may be joined in several places. It uses the cheapest, rather skinny in-wall cable and really cheap wall plugs of very dubious construction. This again will rob the system of bass. Noise on the line from cheap SMPSs used around the house will affect clocks in the server and DAC, again robbing the system of resolution, adding the unresolved air and detail into the signal as noise.
I dont know if you paid any special heed to the network, but if not, again loss of resolution will result, causing the lost detail to be combined with the musical signal as distortion. The vibration through the AV stand will find its way straight into the Innuos and Bricasti clocks, causing considerable jitter and phase noise.
When you listened to the A3 with the Luxman it sounded great, probably because it avoided all the above set-up shortcomings. The bottom line is that a speaker like the Magico A5 will play exactly what it is fed. If that signal is hampered by poor quality mains, poor loudspeaker mounting, poor electronics isolation with a lot of vibration then what you’ll hear is what you heard. Thin, weak bass with over emphasised, distorted HF.

andromedaaudio · Apr 20, 2021

Blackmorec said:
Next up is mains. You have the amp, server and DAC of a potentially high resolution system plugged into the basic household mains supply. This means your amp is potentially under supplied with instantaneous current. The supply line is broken and rejoined in every single light switch, so your mains supply may be joined in several places. It uses the cheapest, rather skinny in-wall cable and really cheap wall plugs of very dubious construction. This again will rob the system of bass.

The things audiophiles come up with , it always amazes me .

.

Luckily as i alrready proposed a page earlier

andromedaaudio said:
And in general good audiophile manner those attributes can off course be altered with the right cable

morricab · Apr 21, 2021

Blackmorec said:
Hi Floyd,
the problem here is definitely the loudspeaker. It is an exceptionally neutral and transparent design, so you really can’t afford to short change it when it comes to set-up. I hope you don't mind if i point out some of the shortcomings in this particular set-up.
The first thing are the carpet spikes combined with hardwood floor protectors. Essentially what this does is the leave the speakers entirely unanchored with each spike free to vibrate and move. This robs the system of large amounts of bass, in terms of amplitude, extension and resolution.
The next problem is in placing all the electronics on a flimsy AV stand with thin glass shelves which will resonate and ring and will transfer that characteristic to the music, making it glassy , mechanical and thin sounding. The large surface area of the tv will also transfer large amounts of vibrational energy into the stand, making the colouration worse.
Then there’s the fact that the tv is hugely reflective and will reflect sounds already reflected off the wall behind the listener. This will introduce strong late reflections, which will strongly interfere with the direct signals from the loudspeakers, causing smear and obscuring detail, which instead of detail is heard as correlated distortion in high energy, upper frequencies.
Combine the lack of bass from the speaker spikes with high levels of uncorrelated Hf reflections and you start getting the sounds you report, which will sound worse the louder it gets.
Next up is mains. You have the amp, server and DAC of a potentially high resolution system plugged into the basic household mains supply. This means your amp is potentially under supplied with instantaneous current. The supply line is broken and rejoined in every single light switch, so your mains supply may be joined in several places. It uses the cheapest, rather skinny in-wall cable and really cheap wall plugs of very dubious construction. This again will rob the system of bass. Noise on the line from cheap SMPSs used around the house will affect clocks in the server and DAC, again robbing the system of resolution, adding the unresolved air and detail into the signal as noise.
I dont know if you paid any special heed to the network, but if not, again loss of resolution will result, causing the lost detail to be combined with the musical signal as distortion. The vibration through the AV stand will find its way straight into the Innuos and Bricasti clocks, causing considerable jitter and phase noise.
When you listened to the A3 with the Luxman it sounded great, probably because it avoided all the above set-up shortcomings. The bottom line is that a speaker like the Magico A5 will play exactly what it is fed. If that signal is hampered by poor quality mains, poor loudspeaker mounting, poor electronics isolation with a lot of vibration then what you’ll hear is what you heard. Thin, weak bass with over emphasised, distorted HF.

All or none of what you pointed out could be true...

I would like to see some data about reflections from the TV, which appears to be a few feet behind the speakers, can cause string reflections and smear the sound...If the TV was in the same plane as the speakers I could perhaps get on board with that not from what I see in the photos.

As to power, you are saying he should run a dedicated line and not use the house power in any way or are you prescribing something else?

Blackmorec · Apr 21, 2021

morricab said:
All or none of what you pointed out could be true...

I would like to see some data about reflections from the TV, which appears to be a few feet behind the speakers, can cause string reflections and smear the sound...If the TV was in the same plane as the speakers I could perhaps get on board with that not from what I see in the photos.

As to power, you are saying he should run a dedicated line and not use the house power in any way or are you prescribing something else?

Hi Morricab,
actually its mostly just simple logic. If adding specialist racks, specialist mains, carpet spikes , room treatments etc bring huge improvements to sound quality, as reported here literally hundreds of times, then doing the opposite will very likely have the opposite effect. For the potential for improvement to be true, the potential for degredation of sound quality must be equally true, given they’re just different sides of the same coin. So acid test. Was the sound quality, using a combination of highly lauded products good or bad? It was exceptionally bad, pretty much proving the point.
As to the TV.....what difference to reflections would it make if the TV was in the same plane as the loudspeakers? The only impact would be a slightly shorter delay time. Remember, what you want to hear are the 2 loudspeaker outputs with nothing added to confuse the brain. When you place a hugely reflective surface plum in the middle of the 2 loudspeakers what you’re getting is a correlated sound source where none should exist. In addition, the TV will also vibrate in a correlated but delayed manner, feeding the vibration into the AV stand and impacting the amp, server and DAC, 2 of which have highly vibration-sensitive oscillators.
The perfect loudspeaker neither adds nor subtracts from the musical signal, but if the signal itself is bad, then the perfect loudspeaker should and will do nothing to improve it, rather it will very accurately reveal the faults.

I get the fact that this was a second system, with all the attention going to the primary system. But what this demonstrates is that excellent components need some care and attention in set-up. The inference was that the Magico speakers were the culprit in delivering bad sound, whereas in truth, the Magicos will deliver pretty much perfectly whatever they are given by way of a signal and in this case it’s the signal, rather than the speakers that is well below par. There’s a valuable lesson here, which is, don't go with highly accurate components unless you‘re willing to ensure that the rest of the system is up to scratch, otherwise all you’ll achieve is to massively highlight those shortcomings.

ack · Apr 21, 2021

Fascinating expertise in dissecting the metallic sound that Ian heard. Impressive

Phillyb · Apr 21, 2021

All speakers have a sound to them, that is why they are designed differently, but the biggest sound impact is your room, and how one speaker would sound in my room would never be the same way it sounds in your room. Wrong room for speaker size, you just throw your money away. Buy a speaker that fits the size of your room, and then add some acoustic treatments and corner bass traps.

Does Magico have a "house sound", and if so, how would you describe it?

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