Best phono stage?

egidius

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Just an update on my previous note regarding the Thoress Phono enhancer. Reinhart has sent me an update of his manual which clarifies some of the points in his earlier version of the manual and adds more informatuion regarding his eq settings.
In response to post 560: I also use a phono pre (Berning ZOTL One) that adheres to RIAA (In answer to the first post: I can recommend that preamp to anybody, full marks.)

This does not help with older LP's, say early 50's, as they may not follow that protocol. For my 78's collection and indeed early LP's I recommend a Rek-O-Kut prepre. A professional product, no-nonsense and ridiculously cheap, but not only does it allow a similarly fine adjustment, it also delivers a fantastic user manual, indicating which setup for which producer in which year. Again highly recommended.
I read Thoress' manual and was intrigued, I am sure it may be gear for the Aficionado of early LP's. Although I would be careful with all these possibilities: you really have to dig deep and long until you get the hang of it.
 
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Atmasphere

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This does not help with older LP's, say early 50's, as they may not follow that protocol. For my 78's collection and indeed early LP's I recommend a Rek-O-Kut prepre. A professional product, no-nonsense and ridiculously cheap, but not only does it allow a similarly fine adjustment, it also delivers a fantastic user manual, indicating which setup for which producer in which year.
Yes, mono EQ can be a bit of the Wild West, especially 78s!
 

perart1

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I do find myself puzzled about EQ curves as described just above. My Westerex LP mastering system only has one EQ curve- that of the RIAA. This is one thing that all LP mastering systems have in common since the simple fact is most LPs are not played on playback systems with variable EQ.

If I were wanting to mess with the sound of the playback, I think I'd be trying to use a tone stack in the line stage, like you might see on a Citation 1 preamp.
Are you assuming that all LP mastering systems apply the RIAA EQ curve? surely not ;)
 

perart1

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In response to post 560: I also use a phono pre (Berning ZOTL One) that adheres to RIAA (In answer to the first post: I can recommend that preamp to anybody, full marks.)

This does not help with older LP's, say early 50's, as they may not follow that protocol. For my 78's collection and indeed early LP's I recommend a Rek-O-Kut prepre. A professional product, no-nonsense and ridiculously cheap, but not only does it allow a similarly fine adjustment, it also delivers a fantastic user manual, indicating which setup for which producer in which year. Again highly recommended.
I read Thoress' manual and was intrigued, I am sure it may be gear for the Aficionado of early LP's. Although I would be careful with all these possibilities: you really have to dig deep and long until you get the hang of it.
Yes, the Rek-O-Kut would appear to be an ideal' convenience' choice for early mono/78's especially given its price point. i actually have no problem in working with the Thoress manual and the choices available. There again I used to use a cello palette and if you can master that you can master anything :)
 
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hongkongfoufou

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hongkongfoufou

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hongkongfoufou

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I received my Accuphase C47.
It's above my old Esoteric E-03, but C47 is very sensible with the turntable.
With VPI Classic 3, the differences between E-03 and C47 are very similar...
With Technics SL-1000R , the differences between E-03 and C47 are enormous...
For the two turntables, I use Audio-Technica ART-9.
 
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shakti

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this weekend I will compare some PhonoGear :)

IMG_5214.jpg IMG_5215.jpg IMG_5220-1.jpg IMG_5216.jpg
 

Tbzc

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Shakti, looking forward to the comparison... Will you also include comparison of step ups? I am especially interested how Nat compares to Phasemation. Have you already had a chance to listen to Nat Vacuum I.N. phono pre? Thanks.
 

shakti

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Shakti, looking forward to the comparison... Will you also include comparison of step ups? I am especially interested how Nat compares to Phasemation. Have you already had a chance to listen to Nat Vacuum I.N. phono pre? Thanks.
Shure, I will compare step ups, but step ups are mostly a perfect mate to a dedicated cartridge, so it is difficult to compare them. I never listened to the NAT PhonoPre, as I am currently looking only for Phono stages with multiple inputs.
 

Tbzc

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Thanks, Shakti. By comparison of SUTs I have meant using Phasemation T2000 SUT in Allnic MM input, and using your existing best SUT/cart combo in MM input of both Allnic and Phasemation. When reading phono preamps shoot out like yours, I am always wondering if we are listening to the ‘limitations’ of internal SUTs or can we isolate and compare the quality of ‘core’ phono pre, meaning MM only.

NAT Vacuum IN actually has mulitiple (2) inputs, though MM only.
 

shakti

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Thanks, Shakti. By comparison of SUTs I have meant using Phasemation T2000 SUT in Allnic MM input, and using your existing best SUT/cart combo in MM input of both Allnic and Phasemation. When reading phono preamps shoot out like yours, I am always wondering if we are listening to the ‘limitations’ of internal SUTs or can we isolate and compare the quality of ‘core’ phono pre, meaning MM only.

NAT Vacuum IN actually has mulitiple (2) inputs, though MM only.
In principle I do not like the most integrated step ups too much. Very often just entry or medium level Lundahl step ups.

LAB12 Melto 2 has a nice tube MM, but the cheap Lundahl vor MC are not the best. You can improve the Melto with Phasemation TT 300 step ups and all the better models.

Phasemation EA-550 has internal improved T-550 step up level (2 chassis), but will be improved, when using T-1000 or T-2000.

Listening to Allnic H7000v, Phasemation T-300 or T-550 is no improvement, T-1000 is different, preference very much by cartridge. T-2000 is a huge improvement for all Carts I tried.

Connecting step ups to my Boulder 2008, T-300 and T-550 is not as good, as internal MC stage. T-1000 depends on Cartridge, but mostly I prefer MC stage of Boulder. T-2000 depending on cartridge, but mostly I prefer T-2000.

I have 4 Tonearms connected, so minimum of 3 inputs, 4 inputs preferred, for my future Phono stage is desired.
 
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Tbzc

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Thanks, Shakti. This is the type of input which is of a great value for me...Sometimes I am wondering why do we have to pay for low quality internal SUTs and why there are no manufacturers which would do a top tube phone pre with all the functions (mono/stereo, eq curves, phase) and multiple inputs but MM only...
 

shakti

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May 9, 2015
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Thanks, Shakti. This is the type of input which is of a great value for me...Sometimes I am wondering why do we have to pay for low quality internal SUTs and why there are no manufacturers which would do a top tube phone pre with all the functions (mono/stereo, eq curves, phase) and multiple inputs but MM only...
I can write in more detail
(out of a thread I have contributed in a German Forum):

I have now listened to music for many hours and I can give some first impression:

Phasemation EA 550 with Phasemation T-1000 step up

plays exactly as the Creator had it in the specifications, ie very authentic, very realistic. My two co listeners both said spontaneously "that's right". Percussion instruments in particular come with such an exact timing that you automatically bob, the sound character can be described as "fast". The spatial positioning seems realistic, and the size of the instruments fits together. Voices come with expression and energy without appearing excessive. All in all a convincing performance that arouses interest in the larger Phasemation phono preamps.


Phasemation EA 550 with Phasemation T-2000 step up

If you connect the next larger Phasemation transformer with the EA 550, the sound becomes calmer, feels more majestic, deeper, more precise, more energetic, simply better in all respects. It is hard to believe that you are listening to the same phono stage.


Allnic H700v in the step up only version with Kron RK Edition Rectifier.

If you switch on the Allnic H7000v, the music suddenly starts to live in a fascinating way, you are emotionally drawn into the music, violins, female voices, etc. cause goose bumps. A fascinating journey into the heart of music, which makes you forget that voices can sometimes seem a bit too big, that the room doesn't seem quite as stable due to the dynamics.


Allnic H700v, Kron RK Edition Rectifier with Phasemation T-2000 step up

If you control the Allnic via the Phasemation T-2000 transformer, it becomes clear what incredible quality the MM branch of the Allnic H7000v has. My co listeners described the jump as the "next level", because size mapping, stability with large volume changes, resolution in the bass range, details in the high frequency range simply increase significantly with the T-2000. At the MC input of the Allnic we played a 4000, - pickup (Etsuro Blue) and at the MM input, supported by the T-2000, a 1000, - eur pickup (Phasemation PP 200), both TA have 4ohm DC resistance. Even the cheaper pickup sounded in a class above the T-2000 that you couldn't believe how "inexpensive" the PP-200 actually is. With this combination, ie PP-200 on T-2000 and Allnic H7000v, we usually let the evening fade away, because it was simply the most emotionally involving set up.


Boulder 2008

If you then connect the Boulder, you become aware of the details that you have left out until now. The Boulder is able to explain all details precisely and calmly over the entire frequency range. The better the recording, the more fascinating the result. If the recording is no good, you don't want to continue listening to the Boulder. The resolution at the lower end of the frequency is especially fascinating; you sometimes think that the Boulder is an octave lower than other phonopres. In this sense the perfect PhonoPre, you would need one for the production of records. But unfortunately I not only have "perfect" records, but also quite a few indie records that sound pretty weak and not very involved on the Boulder. In addition, even with perfect recordings, these are sometimes presented very distantly and with little involvement. It's a bit like not standing in the middle of the dancing crowd at a concert, but sitting above everything in the Lounge. Possibly the best sound, but somehow you are not at the "real"concert


Boulder 2008 with Phasemation T-2000 step up

Together with the Phasemation T-2000 step up, the Boulder clearly gains in emotionality in its reproduction, you prefer to follow voices and acoustic instruments, but once you've heard the Allnic's emotional address, you only hear information and no music at the Boulder.


At least if you like playback through the Allnic's tubes :). On the other hand, this rendering is a pleasant compromise between two worlds. Ultimately, however, it is always important to me which installation you end the evening with after all the comparisons and renovations. And now for the second time the Allnic is there with the T-2000 and making nicely music.


If you then switch to the EA 550 with the T-2000, you are also fascinated by how much of the character of the Allnic / T-2000 combination obviously comes from the T-2000 and is also transported in conjunction with the EA-550.

With regard to Boulder 2008, I now know that the combination with the Audionet STERN is not one of the ideal.

At the Koda Takuma K10 or the Jeff Rowland Criterion, the Boulder 2008 played out much more emotionally, maybe I will now park the Boulder in the second facility until a another opportunity comes again that fits the boulder better ...

The winner of the weekend is definitely the Phasemation T-2000 step up, which managed to improve all 3 connected PhonoPres. This will definitely stay that way!

A combination of the liveliness of the Phasemation EA-550 preamplifier and the euphoric tube reproduction of the Allnic would now be the sought-after next step. Could it be an Allnic H8000v, or a Phasemation EA 1000 or EA 2000, or a phono preamplifier that I haven't seen before?

At least I now have a more concrete idea of the direction in which the next sonic step should go. A good MM input is definitely required so that the Phasemation T-2000 step up can also be connected.

ps
the full story of my Phonostage journey can be found in a German Forum:
Google translate makes reading easy.
 

bonzo75

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I can write in more detail
(out of a thread I have contributed in a German Forum):

I have now listened to music for many hours and I can give some first impression:

Phasemation EA 550 with Phasemation T-1000 step up

plays exactly as the Creator had it in the specifications, ie very authentic, very realistic. My two co listeners both said spontaneously "that's right". Percussion instruments in particular come with such an exact timing that you automatically bob, the sound character can be described as "fast". The spatial positioning seems realistic, and the size of the instruments fits together. Voices come with expression and energy without appearing excessive. All in all a convincing performance that arouses interest in the larger Phasemation phono preamps.


Phasemation EA 550 with Phasemation T-2000 step up

If you connect the next larger Phasemation transformer with the EA 550, the sound becomes calmer, feels more majestic, deeper, more precise, more energetic, simply better in all respects. It is hard to believe that you are listening to the same phono stage.


Allnic H700v in the step up only version with Kron RK Edition Rectifier.

If you switch on the Allnic H7000v, the music suddenly starts to live in a fascinating way, you are emotionally drawn into the music, violins, female voices, etc. cause goose bumps. A fascinating journey into the heart of music, which makes you forget that voices can sometimes seem a bit too big, that the room doesn't seem quite as stable due to the dynamics.


Allnic H700v, Kron RK Edition Rectifier with Phasemation T-2000 step up

If you control the Allnic via the Phasemation T-2000 transformer, it becomes clear what incredible quality the MM branch of the Allnic H7000v has. My co listeners described the jump as the "next level", because size mapping, stability with large volume changes, resolution in the bass range, details in the high frequency range simply increase significantly with the T-2000. At the MC input of the Allnic we played a 4000, - pickup (Etsuro Blue) and at the MM input, supported by the T-2000, a 1000, - eur pickup (Phasemation PP 200), both TA have 4ohm DC resistance. Even the cheaper pickup sounded in a class above the T-2000 that you couldn't believe how "inexpensive" the PP-200 actually is. With this combination, ie PP-200 on T-2000 and Allnic H7000v, we usually let the evening fade away, because it was simply the most emotionally involving set up.


Boulder 2008

If you then connect the Boulder, you become aware of the details that you have left out until now. The Boulder is able to explain all details precisely and calmly over the entire frequency range. The better the recording, the more fascinating the result. If the recording is no good, you don't want to continue listening to the Boulder. The resolution at the lower end of the frequency is especially fascinating; you sometimes think that the Boulder is an octave lower than other phonopres. In this sense the perfect PhonoPre, you would need one for the production of records. But unfortunately I not only have "perfect" records, but also quite a few indie records that sound pretty weak and not very involved on the Boulder. In addition, even with perfect recordings, these are sometimes presented very distantly and with little involvement. It's a bit like not standing in the middle of the dancing crowd at a concert, but sitting above everything in the Lounge. Possibly the best sound, but somehow you are not at the "real"concert


Boulder 2008 with Phasemation T-2000 step up

Together with the Phasemation T-2000 step up, the Boulder clearly gains in emotionality in its reproduction, you prefer to follow voices and acoustic instruments, but once you've heard the Allnic's emotional address, you only hear information and no music at the Boulder.


At least if you like playback through the Allnic's tubes :). On the other hand, this rendering is a pleasant compromise between two worlds. Ultimately, however, it is always important to me which installation you end the evening with after all the comparisons and renovations. And now for the second time the Allnic is there with the T-2000 and making nicely music.


If you then switch to the EA 550 with the T-2000, you are also fascinated by how much of the character of the Allnic / T-2000 combination obviously comes from the T-2000 and is also transported in conjunction with the EA-550.

With regard to Boulder 2008, I now know that the combination with the Audionet STERN is not one of the ideal.

At the Koda Takuma K10 or the Jeff Rowland Criterion, the Boulder 2008 played out much more emotionally, maybe I will now park the Boulder in the second facility until a another opportunity comes again that fits the boulder better ...

The winner of the weekend is definitely the Phasemation T-2000 step up, which managed to improve all 3 connected PhonoPres. This will definitely stay that way!

A combination of the liveliness of the Phasemation EA-550 preamplifier and the euphoric tube reproduction of the Allnic would now be the sought-after next step. Could it be an Allnic H8000v, or a Phasemation EA 1000 or EA 2000, or a phono preamplifier that I haven't seen before?

At least I now have a more concrete idea of the direction in which the next sonic step should go. A good MM input is definitely required so that the Phasemation T-2000 step up can also be connected.

ps
the full story of my Phonostage journey can be found in a German Forum:
Google translate makes reading easy.

The Allnic 3000/7000 with KR is a great phono. The 5000 or 8000 is obviously better.

I covered the phasemation EA 550 and compares with Thrax and Anamighty sounds phono in the report on Anamighty. http://zero-distortion.org/analog-shoot-anamighty-sound/

Phasemation was a close second at half the Thrax price, and it is their second model from top and solid state. I have always wondered how the EA 1000 will be given it is DHT like the Allnic 5000/8000 and only 11k euro. It comes with cheap tubes which can be easily upgraded, uses same recti as Allnic and Lampi.
 

Atmasphere

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Are you assuming that all LP mastering systems apply the RIAA EQ curve? surely not ;)
That's more than an assumption! Again, most LPs are not played on high end audio systems. 99.99% of all phono preamps have only one curve which is the RIAA. So as a result, all LP mastering pre-emphasis conforms to that curve, although a bit more accurately than the run of the mill phono section.
 

perart1

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Mar 17, 2012
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That's more than an assumption! Again, most LPs are not played on high end audio systems. 99.99% of all phono preamps have only one curve which is the RIAA. So as a result, all LP mastering pre-emphasis conforms to that curve, although a bit more accurately than the run of the mill phono section.
I should have inserted the word 'historically' after assuming.
 
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dwhistance

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I should have inserted the word 'historically' after assuming.
Hi, you are obviously keen on the Thoress, have you had a chance to hear one in your system yet? I'm interested in it in principle but am slightly wary after Tom's (montesquieu's) review. Also having read the manual and also had a brief email exchange with Reinhard I'm slightly worried about matching to my current and perhaps more importantly future cartridges. Ideally I'd like to try one at home but I'm not sure that's possible here in the UK at the moment. David
 

perart1

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Mar 17, 2012
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Cheltenham
Hi, you are obviously keen on the Thoress, have you had a chance to hear one in your system yet? I'm interested in it in principle but am slightly wary after Tom's (montesquieu's) review. Also having read the manual and also had a brief email exchange with Reinhard I'm slightly worried about matching to my current and perhaps more importantly future cartridges. Ideally I'd like to try one at home but I'm not sure that's possible here in the UK at the moment. David
Hi David

Actually my discussions with Reinhard were because of my interest in stereo recorded LP's, not mono. I note Tom's comments and whilst I understand where he is coming from, I do not agree with some of his conclusions. He has very specific requirements which may or may not be similar to yours. Most of his issues have been commented on by other contributors without me adding further to that discussion.

The choice of phonostage is inevitably a very personal one, and there is not a one size fits all solution. For example I have a lyra Connossieur that is ideal for four of my cartridges. I have not yet heard a phono stage that I prefer over the Lyra.There is no gain or loading adjustment. For many people this would not be acceptable. I just happen to agree with J Carr regarding cartridge and phono design. My other two cartridges use a step up as they were originally designed to do so. Again, not everyone sees a step up as an acceptable solution. Etc. Etc.

So my excursion into understanding the Thoress phono stage was driven by my interest in getting the best from my many early (1960/1970) stereo LP's. This of course is equally contentious, because didn't all LP's after 1955 use the RIA EQ curve! Not in my opinion. As far as I can see the Thoress does provide for a lot of flexibility; more than i really need in fact. I see no point in buying functionality for its own sake. I have certainly done that in the past. The problem, as you note, is getting to hear one in the UK, which I would dearly like to do in my system with a broad choice of music.

As an aside. I would like to know more about anyones experience of the new audiospecial"s phono stage. Probably better known in Europe than in the UK or stateside?
 

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