Does "competes with much more expensive" actually exist?

Gregm · Nov 4, 2020

Hear Here said:
Is the guy working with his soldering iron and hard wiring hundreds of components together likely to do a better job (in terms of eventual sound quality) than the programmed micro construction that the mass producers can (though often don't) achieve?

Point well taken and, frankly, I don't think hand-made proffers an unequivocal advantage; more likely, it's the design, the materials quality, etc.
However, many top-end devices are also manufactured in a micro-controlled, computerised environment: take MSB for example.

But there's no doubt that your morgan is much more of a joy to ride than my merc sedan!

Tim F · Nov 4, 2020

Very interesting all, I sadly have a limited budget so can’t prove anything for myself. Hence looking for some level of value when I buy. My system isn’t bad, to most normal people it’d be extreme.

The only way I can differentiate between reviews is where they compare products, typically at the end. Most reviewers seem unwilling to pitch many many products against each with any real detail. Therefore your opinions are hugely valuable and thanks for that. Sadly I need a preamp not a power or I’d be looking for a Parasound

dan31 · Nov 4, 2020

There are several ic preamps that are associated with desktop systems. These products offer great value but are usually limited to 2 inputs. If you only need two inputs these are a great place to start.

Mikem53 · Nov 5, 2020

I have found Schiit Audio to offer good value and quality on some of their products.. I have some friends who immediately dismiss Schitt audio as being too “Cheap” to be any good.. Yet with the Talents of Mike Moffatt and Jason Stoddard at the helm, They usually come up with something way better than its price point would suggest.. Two examples are the Yggdrasil DAC and the Freya+ preamp. These two components bested many components I’ve had or heard costing much more.. Not loaded with frills or fancy artwork.. but they perform way beyond their price point.. IME.

tima · Nov 5, 2020

Hear Here said:
Then there are certain brands that want to exude an image of exclusivity and deliberately over-price their offering and offer their dealers a higher than normal markup.

And dealers get hooked on that higher margin.

You see some of that in the vast pantheon of cables. There are instances where two cables each cost, say, $10k, but one is a significantly better value (hah!) than the other because the money is not put into the margin (or bling) but better desing, materials, warranty, etc.

Tim F said:
Outside of cost not object, are there some high end makes that are better for value for money or is this just hype?

I'm seeing some instances of feature overload that drive up cost. One manufacture adds feature X and others feel they need that feature to stay competitive. Look at the plethora of phonostages that cropped up offering alternative equalization curves, beyond the pre-requisite RIAA curve. Trendy, but what is the real-world value there? But there are other models from different manufacturers that don't have feature X, yet remain competitive in terms of sonic results at a lower cost. Just finished a review of a $13k phonostage that is bling-free and nearly devoid of features yet sonically competes with units costing 20-35% more.

Tim F said:
The only way I can differentiate between reviews is where they compare products, typically at the end. Most reviewers seem unwilling to pitch many many products against each with any real detail.

In earlier days of TAS under Pearson occasionaly you'd find shootouts between 3-4 different brands - my recollection is of cables (Cordesman) and cartridges (HP). Also remember that those early TAS issues took no advertising. I enjoyed such shootouts though commentary on each product tended to be quite brief.

However, I don't know that unwillingness is the main reason for the absence of many many products pitched against each other in reviews.

Nowadays there is only a handful of reviewers who have on hand multiple instances of different types of relevant gear with similar cost. Some of it is their personal units accumulated over time, but the majority of that is manufacturer loan. It is difficult to ask a manufacturer to loan out a particular piece of gear for the purpose of using it as a comparison to a different manufacturer's unit which is the actual subject of the review. It is also incredibly time consuming to do a thorough comparison between more than two pieces of equipment at a time.

So yes, though they often tend to be quick and brief, there is value in forum comparisons.

marmota · Nov 5, 2020

Sadly, it means nothing.
I see this all the time with DACs, and had a negative experience with one of those chinese, "giant killer" R2R DACs. This brand has plenty of online representation, so to avoid "damage" and people jumping at me, I'll not say the name or model, only that it costs 800€. I've heard it in a system that was like this: ATC SCM50 > Karan integrated amp > CEC TL5 CD Transport > DAC.
There were other two DACs for comparison, one around the same price (Schiit Bifrost 2 Multibit) and other more mainstream and more expensive (Bricasti M3).

If you blind buy the "giant killer" and ignore the other two, because "diminishing returns", "I want performance, not luxury", "I don't have a 200k system"...you'll end up with a DAC that sounds both harsh, dead and boring at the same time, it literally sounded broken next to the Bifrost, which really sounded nice. Now, the Bricasti justifies the price difference and stomps them, no "diminishing returns" here.

Lesson learned: not everything is that simple, and marketing applies to both the high priced and low priced items, do not let a price tag fool you, it doesn't matter if 800$ or 6000$, listen and buy what you like, not what a bunch of "smart" people told you.

Tim F · Nov 5, 2020

Thanks all. I do find that most of the people involved in cult following of cheaper kit, a) have midrange systems at best b) are measurement only matters belief c) haven’t compared it themselves with more expensive kit and therefore have no experience

Hear Here · Nov 5, 2020

marmota said:
Sadly, it means nothing.
I see this all the time with DACs, and had a negative experience with one of those chinese, "giant killer" R2R DACs. This brand has plenty of online representation, so to avoid "damage" and people jumping at me, I'll not say the name or model, only that it costs 800€. I've heard it in a system that was like this: ATC SCM50 > Karan integrated amp > CEC TL5 CD Transport > DAC.
There were other two DACs for comparison, one around the same price (Schiit Bifrost 2 Multibit) and other more mainstream and more expensive (Bricasti M3).

If you blind buy the "giant killer" and ignore the other two, because "diminishing returns", "I want performance, not luxury", "I don't have a 200k system"...you'll end up with a DAC that sounds both harsh, dead and boring at the same time, it literally sounded broken next to the Bifrost, which really sounded nice. Now, the Bricasti justifies the price difference and stomps them, no "diminishing returns" here.

Lesson learned: not everything is that simple, and marketing applies to both the high priced and low priced items, do not let a price tag fool you, it doesn't matter if 800$ or 6000$, listen and buy what you like, not what a bunch of "smart" people told you.

You seem to have fallen into the trap of buying a product (at any price) after reading how great it is. Your last paragraph acknowledges the essential test - how good does it sound in your own system in your own home?

This applies as much to costly gear as to cheap stuff. There is plenty of good inexpensive equipment that will match the performance of much more costly equipment for the reasons I put forward earlier. "Built in China" is not a recipe for poor quality. Lots of US / Canadian ./ Britsh / European branded equipment is constructed in China. As long as it's designed properly (as most non-China-branded is) and the brand ensures quality control is vigorous, there should be no disadvantage.

Much of my own electronics were "Assembled in China", but Canadian designed and I hear none of "harsh, dead and boring at the same time" you experienced. On this forum it would be considered positively cheap, but users of other forums would be saying I've spent far more than necessary as most of what it does could be achiened by a PC and a few very cheap DIY boxes! It has elements designed in Denmark (its Purifi amp modules) and its DAC and DSP are also of non-Chinese design, so the fact that the people and machines that pick and assemble the parts are located in China doesn't worry me. It's what it sounds like that pleases me.

Mikem53 · Nov 5, 2020

Tim F said:
Thanks all. I do find that most of the people involved in cult following of cheaper kit, a) have midrange systems at best b) are measurement only matters belief c) haven’t compared it themselves with more expensive kit and therefore have no experience

Same can be said for those who jump into the audio arena with nothing but money expecting it to be the best solution regardless of knowledge , basic understanding of how measurements should be utilized, haven’t compared to lower priced or DIY systems whose performance might be equal or better than more expensive brands. Just cutting out the middleman/dealer can save you 50% without any SQ degradation..

marmota · Nov 5, 2020

Hear Here said:
You seem to have fallen into the trap of buying a product (at any price) after reading how great it is. Your last paragraph acknowledges the essential test - how good does it sound in your own system in your own home?

This applies as much to costly gear as to cheap stuff. There is plenty of good inexpensive equipment that will match the performance of much more costly equipment for the reasons I put forward earlier. "Built in China" is not a recipe for poor quality. Lots of US / Canadian ./ Britsh / European branded equipment is constructed in China. As long as it's designed properly (as most non-China-branded is) and the brand ensures quality control is vigorous, there should be no disadvantage.

Much of my own electronics were "Assembled in China", but Canadian designed and I hear none of "harsh, dead and boring at the same time" you experienced. On this forum it would be considered positively cheap, but users of other forums would be saying I've spent far more than necessary as most of what it does could be achiened by a PC and a few very cheap DIY boxes! It has elements designed in Denmark (its Purifi amp modules) and its DAC and DSP are also of non-Chinese design, so the fact that the people and machines that pick and assemble the parts are located in China doesn't worry me. It's what it sounds like that pleases me.

Nice broad brush.

"This applies as much to costly gear as to cheap stuff. There is plenty of good inexpensive equipment that will match the performance of much more costly equipment for the reasons I put forward earlier."

Yes, and I didn't said otherwise, I prefer the Bifrost to much more expensive DACs I've heard (Mytek, Lynx), but not in comparison to the Bricasti. Good things are expensive, but not everything that is expensive is good. That was my point.

Everytime I see "giant killer", I understand that it sounds like crap, it is my experience with those kind of products, same with the Benchmark AHB2, which I also heard. Dead and lifeless. Schiit Vidar is not touted as a "giant killer", costs 1/5th of the Benchmark and sounds much better. Does this mean that the Schiit is going to sound better/equal or marginally worse than a Dartzeel/Vitus amp? No, not even in dreams, there's a big, big jump in performance. Again...which one is the "giant killer"? The one that sounded like crap compared to something 1/5th of it's price.
"Giant killer" said by various forums or reviewers=run, as fast as you can.

Going back to the DACs, which one I bought? The Bifrost, because I liked the sound and can afford it without stretching. The comparison was very helpful to:
A) Not wasting money on a "giant killer" POS
B) Buying something that I like, but also getting a reality check knowing what is possible if you have more funds to spend wisely on something that truly is superior and justifies it's price with superior build quality and sound.

It would be helpful if, instead of using the broad brush, you read what I said and don't make assumptions to use any kind of straw man argument about topics that are already beated to death.

dan31 · Nov 5, 2020

The Schitt products are a great value. The sad thing in the hi end is you only know better through experience. Most of us have learned through many iterations. Yes great gear usually costs more money but value for money exists at the higher prices as well.

DaveC · Nov 5, 2020

It depends on what you value.

Remember the Lexicon disc player that was literally an OPPO dumped into a fancy case? Lots of folks likely value that fancy case. The amount of effort and cash put into industrial design is pretty incredible in this industry.

Also, just like anything else, there is a WIDE range of competency in high end audio. For cables I can give some examples...

- Cables that can't be bent without putting too much stress on the cable. See side-by-side ribbon or foil conductors, custom made gold wires that break after relatively few bending cycles, and cables made with excessively thick solid-core wires.
- Speaker Cables with totally separate + and - legs. Electrical characteristics will be different depending on how they are run.
- Cables that corrode. Air dielectric is a horrible idea, as is silk or cotton, as it exposes the conductor to corrosion.
- Cables with poor overall electrical characteristics due to "original" or "unique" designs.
- Cables using very strange conductors. I've seen Tungsten speaker cables... Seriously?

So just like most items, some are higher or lower quality, some are poorly designed, and in general, buyer beware! Larger and more established brands are often in that position because they have a good product. OTOH, they may also be more focused on "luxury", so markups are going to be much higher, and there is no guarantee... you may be buying an OPPO in a fancy box anyways! If you go with a smaller company do your due diligence to avoid buying crap.

Hear Here · Nov 5, 2020

> Everytime I see "giant killer", I understand that it sounds like crap, it is my experience with those kind of products, same with the Benchmark AHB2, which I also heard. Dead and lifeless.

You may be missing out on bargains then! What if the inexpensive item really is a "giant killer"? Do you dismiss it as crap? How should a fair-minded and impartial eviewer describe a product that he genuinely feels is way above its price point? And how should he describe one he feels is crap - certainly not as a giant killer surely? You've perhaps missed out on the bargain!

However I do agree with you over the Benchmark amp. Certainly not crap, but I found it dead and lifeless too. I don't care that it may be "accurate" - I want an amp to contribute to the vibrancy of music and the excitement of listening to it. Benchmark doesn't offer that, although I admire its adjustable rear panel gain settings and other great features often missing from power amps. Sorry if you're watching Kal, I know you love the Benchmark. Try comparing it with the M33 you reviewed recently and also loved (or even the earlier M32) - I think you'll find yourself turning up the NAD's volume and turning down the Benchmark! Peter

Kal Rubinson · Nov 5, 2020

Hear Here said:
Sorry if you're watching Kal, I know you love the Benchmark. Try comparing it with the M33 you reviewed recently and also loved (or even the earlier M32) - I think you'll find yourself turning up the NAD's volume and turning down the Benchmark!

Can't do that. Sent the M33 back because it is crippled with an insufficient number of channels.

I have installed a NAD M28 in my CT system when the the Benchmark was less successful.

Genkifd · Nov 5, 2020

to me its all about the synergy of a system. yeh you read / hear about giant killers and they can be great. but in your system will that component sound great?? are you happy with your system or are you constantly chasing the next best thing?

Hear Here · Nov 5, 2020

Kal Rubinson said:
Can't do that. Sent the M33 back because it is crippled with an insufficient number of channels.
I have installed a NAD M28 in my CT system when the the Benchmark was less successful.

Thanks Kal, but I don't understand what you say about "number of channels" Channels of what? Am I missing something about the M33 I was unaware of? Peter

marmota · Nov 5, 2020

Hear Here said:
> Everytime I see "giant killer", I understand that it sounds like crap, it is my experience with those kind of products, same with the Benchmark AHB2, which I also heard. Dead and lifeless.

You may be missing out on bargains then! What if the inexpensive item really is a "giant killer"? Do you dismiss it as crap? How should a fair-minded and impartial eviewer describe a product that he genuinely feels is way above its price point? And how should he describe one he feels is crap - certainly not as a giant killer surely? You've perhaps missed out on the bargain!

However I do agree with you over the Benchmark amp. Certainly not crap, but I found it dead and lifeless too. I don't care that it may be "accurate" - I want an amp to contribute to the vibrancy of music and the excitement of listening to it. Benchmark doesn't offer that, although I admire its adjustable rear panel gain settings and other great features often missing from power amps. Sorry if you're watching Kal, I know you love the Benchmark. Try comparing it with the M33 you reviewed recently and also loved (or even the earlier M32) - I think you'll find yourself turning up the NAD's volume and turning down the Benchmark! Peter

Glad we agree on the Benchmark

Fair point, but the term "giant killer" seems wankerish and unelegant, it is very different from "good value". There's a correlation between this and the product sounding bad IMO. If I miss a bargain? Bad for me then, but is not the end of the world. Plenty of stuff out there, and I'll be much more comfortable buying from a company that says "good value, this is why" than "giant killer, throw your expensive gear and buy this".

By the way, the type of reviewer that you describe does not exist in the context that you described, because someone fair minded and good at reviewing audio gear, apart from doing comparisons, chooses his/her words carefully and doesn't say stupid stuff such as giant killer. People that use those kind of terms are usually clueless or shills.

Kal Rubinson · Nov 5, 2020

Hear Here said:
Thanks Kal, but I don't understand what you say about "number of channels" Channels of what? Am I missing something about the M33 I was unaware of? Peter

You do know that the M33 is stereo only, don't you?

Testy Troll · Nov 5, 2020

DaveC said:
Also, just like anything else, there is a WIDE range of competency in high end audio. For cables I can give some examples...

1) Cables that can't be bent without putting too much stress on the cable. See side-by-side ribbon or foil conductors, custom made gold wires that break after relatively few bending cycles, and cables made with excessively thick solid-core wires.
2) Speaker Cables with totally separate + and - legs. Electrical characteristics will be different depending on how they are run.
-3) Cables that corrode. Air dielectric is a horrible idea, as is silk or cotton, as it exposes the conductor to corrosion.
4) Cables with poor overall electrical characteristics due to "original" or "unique" designs.
-5) Cables using very strange conductors. I've seen Tungsten speaker cables... Seriously?

I nominate the Silversmith Fidelium Speaker Cables that not only compete with much more expensive cables, but according to a couple dozen reviews, actually is superior to them.

I don't agree with some of your claims.
1) The foil type Fidelium is virtually indestructible.
I agree it can be dented or creased, but it has no effect on performance.
2) The separate runs inherent to the Fidelium design have no effect on the sound.
The most balanced cables in my experience.
3) I agree certain cables may have corrosion problems, but the Silversmith is not one of them.
4) Jeff Smith, the cable's designer, does not use the usual electrical "parameters" in the formulation of this cable. He espouses the electro-magnetic wave theory of signal movement with a heavy emphasis on minimizing skin effect properties.
He believes that these usual parameters have little or no effect on frequency response. I assure you, nothing is "poor" about these cables.
5) The Fidelium uses a proprietary alloy (not copper or silver).
I assure you, this is one "serious" cable.

I suggest you try these amazing cables.
I'm sure Jeff would loan you a set.
Be prepared to open up your wallet after you audition them.....

Hear Here · Nov 6, 2020

Kal Rubinson said:
You do know that the M33 is stereo only, don't you?

Yes of course - I'm listening to my M33 right now. But so is the Benchmark only 2 channels - so a comparison of amp performance is apt.

I appreciate now not possible if you've returned the units unless memory serves you very well, or you recorded your "smile factor" when reviewing these 2 amps!

Thanks. Peter

Does "competes with much more expensive" actually exist?

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