Zero Distortion: Leif's System with TAD 4003 based dual FLH

morricab

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Servo control is an reaction to an event already passed , no matter who makes it and while i like and have servo’s myself its far from natural vs conventional done right , its nice but not as natural sounding IMO.

For bass it should be fast enough not to be noticeable, I would think. You have that on your IRS system, right? I had it on my IRS Betas and also on Genesis VI speakers. I liked the bass very much on both. That said, the bass on my TQWT Odeons is faster, snappier but not nearly as powerful. The best bass I ever had, bar none, was a huge pair of Acoustat Spectra 4400s (area equivalent to go knows how many 15 inch woofers) that were flat to 20Hz and fast as hell with no overhang...amazing really.
 

bonzo75

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Ked ,

Are these systems mono or stereo setups?

Stereo. I just gave one speaker pic to indicate the different tweeter set up.

That said all good stereo systems should be able to play good mono records.
 

Alrainbow

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For bass it should be fast enough not to be noticeable, I would think. You have that on your IRS system, right? I had it on my IRS Betas and also on Genesis VI speakers. I liked the bass very much on both. That said, the bass on my TQWT Odeons is faster, snappier but not nearly as powerful. The best bass I ever had, bar none, was a huge pair of Acoustat Spectra 4400s (area equivalent to go knows how many 15 inch woofers) that were flat to 20Hz and fast as hell with no overhang...amazing really.


All servo based system are always obvious , it has that servo controlled sound, I like it for what it does , its low bass powerful etc , but you never get that natural bass wack as delivered by large non servo bass units ..

There’s always a tone , i find Gary @ Genesis bass units the best sounding of the servo bass units i have heard ..
 

bonzo75

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bonzo75

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Question ?

Doesnt OB designs have more distortion and suffer from nonlinearities in the bass vs enclosure type ..?

Is this why most choose to use boxes ..?

Boxes have the most distortion. Boxes are chosen because that is the easiest way to get quantity.... You can have a small driver in a small box, to match that bass power you need many big woofers in an open baffle.
 

bonzo75

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Do you find Mono better on your system..?

:)

Anthony has hacked your account. You should do more research and try to make your system sound good with mono, else better off not having one
 

Alrainbow

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Boxes have more distortion , why would that be so , is there any papers or measurements on this i never heard that before..

So the best bass horns would be open back horns , kinda like what DDK has ..?
 

Alrainbow

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Anthony has hacked your account. You should do more research and try to make your system sound good with mono, else better off not having one
kedar I’m not looking to argue we each have our likes. But we must always consider specs and compare to what we hear. This gives us an honest perspectivE. And based on your views you dont have any facts based on specs and any consideration of an entire system. I have been next to you with my head hurting while you sit and listen. Just what was there to hear as it was a mess. yes oh be nice right. Is it nice to shit on all WA owners. Geez bro. I have read many books now and lord knows how much online. yes he is a very good friend but friendship has no place in real world facts. I read and learn here and yes plenty is not how I see it. But I never say ones equipment choice is dumb especially if it’s the cost a house lol. and for the record you have posted two videos and both are far from my liking but hey it’s audio there is always someone to like it. take a step back now or next time you make a dumb post and beg me to remove your blocked get my point here
as I’m Very busy running multiple companies my posts do vary greatly as most I do it fast and don’t use glasses or spell. but know I’m way above what you or many here think I am. Remember if your confident in who you are you don’t have to care of other views. I have learned to consider this place sells things. As such I try hard to shut up and not trash. Learn to ked if you get bounced here all your smart info is gone
 

kodomo

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All servo based system are always obvious , it has that servo controlled sound, I like it for what it does , its low bass powerful etc , but you never get that natural bass wack as delivered by large non servo bass units ..

There’s always a tone , i find Gary @ Genesis bass units the best sounding of the servo bass units i have heard ..

I guess you have not listened to this topology of servo that Rythmik makes or if you did we have differing opinions. I am lucky enough to hear Infinity servo system which I liked but the way rythmik servo system works and sounds is different. I do not hear the servo signature I hear in an infinity system.

I would like to go in on what I call natural. I chose to talk about it because you have said they are not natural. I actually do not know what you call natural or how you evaluate it. First of all do you consider the continued movement of the cones that does not correspond the signal natural? Because, it is different for every type of cone material, surround material, magnet and also dependent on the amplifier damping. So not being servo does not make the rest of the systems more natural in their cone movement. Servo control is a feedback yes, but so are a lot of stuff that goes on in creating the sound. Feedback alone is not an unnatural way of sound creation and once more it all depends on the implementation. Idealised approaches may not correspond to end results. This is also true for recordings. A very good recording with you are there feeling does not need to be the simplest and most non intervened recording, actually it would most probably be otherwise. Stereo is an illusion which we creatively try to make us believe the sound we are getting is natural etc.

How I define natural is to listen to recordings I have made (I had a studio and still have recording equipment) and try to hear if the overall sound that I hear at my listening point corresponds to how I tried the recording to sound. As a and old drummer and piano dabbler, I spent quite some time on these to hear for nuances as well. So, for me it is two fold. First measurements and being sure everything is within reference limits (frequency response, phase, decay, impulse response) then I listen to recordings I made or made by other people but when I was at the recordings or mixing. Through these, I find the rythmik servo system to sound very natural, coherent with horns and sounding good within a room. I do not use rythmik drivers and boxes but open baffle modded amps from gr research with paper drivers in arrays.

ps. boxes has less distortion because air pressure changes in it works as a spring. It gives power compression but at the same time reduces distortion. In an open baffle we have to equalize due to acoustic dipole loss (hence we choose higher q drivers). Still, you can not directly compare, because if you make a small box and have too much pressure in it then that would also mean a lot non linearities, again needs and implemantations, there is no single correct or best answer at all.
 

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Alrainbow

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I guess you have not listened to this topology of servo that Rythmik makes or if you did we have differing opinions. I am lucky enough to hear Infinity servo system which I liked but the way rythmik servo system works and sounds is different. I do not hear the servo signature I hear in an infinity system.

I would like to go in on what I call natural. I chose to talk about it because you have said they are not natural. I actually do not know what you call natural or how you evaluate it. First of all do you consider the continued movement of the cones that does not correspond the signal natural? Because, it is different for every type of cone material, surround material, magnet and also dependent on the amplifier damping. So not being servo does not make the rest of the systems more natural in their cone movement. Servo control is a feedback yes, but so are a lot of stuff that goes on in creating the sound. Feedback alone is not an unnatural way of sound creation and once more it all depends on the implementation. Idealised approaches may not correspond to end results. This is also true for recordings. A very good recording with you are there feeling does not need to be the simplest and most non intervened recording, actually it would most probably be otherwise. Stereo is an illusion which we creatively try to make us believe the sound we are getting is natural etc.

How I define natural is to listen to recordings I have made (I had a studio and still have recording equipment) and try to hear if the overall sound that I hear at my listening point corresponds to how I tried the recording to sound. As a and old drummer and piano dabbler, I spent quite some time on these to hear for nuances as well. So, for me it is two fold. First measurements and being sure everything is within reference limits (frequency response, phase, decay, impulse response) then I listen to recordings I made or made by other people but when I was at the recordings or mixing. Through these, I find the rythmik servo system to sound very natural, coherent with horns and sounding good within a room. I do not use rythmik drivers and boxes but open baffle modded amps from gr research with paper drivers in arrays.

ps. boxes has less distortion because air pressure changes in it works as a spring. It gives power compression but at the same time reduces distortion. In an open baffle we have to equalize due to acoustic dipole loss (hence we choose higher q drivers). Still, you can not directly compare, because if you make a small box and have too much pressure in it then that would also mean a lot non linearities, again needs and implemantations, there is no single correct or best answer at all.

Agree there is no single or correct or best answer at least thats what i was implying, again all servo controllers are reacting after the event , well thats my understanding i guess you maybe comparing bass from low damping tubeamps with limited control, where the bass hangs, again i like the servo sound on the low bass but i can hear the difference when listening non servo to large powerful
Vented systems

I think we agree more than we disagree ..
 
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Ovenmitt

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This is a really interesting thread to read through.... Leif, your speakers sound fantastic!

I'd love to build my own horn speakers but hardly know where to start. Aside from the book that was mentioned earlier can anyone recommend some places where I could go to learn more?
 

bonzo75

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I'd love to build my own horn speakers but hardly know where to start. Aside from the book that was mentioned earlier can anyone recommend some places where I could go to learn more?

Right now you should be like Graham and get excited about rolling each driver in each horn. Gradually you will get more focused and morph into a Tao.

Since I have been going through a want to build phase, and discussing with builders, I will share the following:
First, you need to decide what design you want, i.e. front loaded, back loaded, downward firing, small one woofer, large two woofer, etc. Given your big room I would recommend my choice: dual woofer front loaded horns, unless you want to maintain at same size as your current duos.

Once you decide the design, you have to decide the driver. You will never be able to decide on one, so the thing is group similar drivers and roll them, i.e. similar size drivers with the same impedance that can be crossed over at the same point with minor adjustments. So Leif could, for example, swap JBL or Altec or Radian with his TAD if he wanted to (well he has already tried many). Bill's design is different and while he cannot use TAD or Radian without adjusting his crossover point, other drivers like BMS, Lowther, are similar to AER in that regard at the same crossover point (though the AER is vastly superior).

So which design or driver should you start with? Well, the one you like and have heard, and the one you can get crossovers for. If you start doing the whole build yourself from the beginning based on theory, you might be lost forever. My suggestion is to assemble a proven design first, and then learn how to tweak crossovers etc so you always have a reference to come back to. For me the Altec 817 or Leif's can be assembled, and then I could roll drivers if I wanted to. I was more focused on Beryllium anyway, so when I got TAD 4003 I bought it, and I had educated confirmation it was the best. The other drivers are more easily available and can be bought any time. That said, if I bought a , for example, JBL 2482 (phenolic), I wouldn't know what to do with it since I haven't heard a good speaker with that driver yet, though I am sure you can fit it into Leif's design with a JBL tweeter adjusting crossover points slightly.

When you investigate drivers and designs you will see some horns go with certain drivers, e.g. Radial and JMLC with TAD types, additionally wooden multicells as well, and then tractrix especially for lower crossover points. Your crossover at approx. 2 times the cutoff for your horn.

As an example
Crossover: Altec 817 is 500 hz, Leif's 550.
Horn needs to be a approx 250 - 300 hz cutoff frequency to account for the above two crossovers. Can try radial, multicell, or JMLC with that cutoff
Below that dual woofers.
Decide on lower bass - with Altec 817 the vents in the midbass horn take over, with Leif's you need an additional big lower bass solution. Think about your room and visuals.
Start with keep things simple. Start with two way, check if you need tweeter, and add lower bass active. Some people believe in two way, some are willing to do more. If you get into building you will want to keep trying so might as well know where you can start and what you can roll. No one sits still in this hobby. At the same time, don't make the mistake of just building without a reference sound to get to
 
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the sound of Tao

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Right now you should be like Graham and get excited about rolling each driver in each horn. Gradually you will get more focused and morph into a Tao.

Since I have been going through a want to build phase, and discussing with builders, I will share the following:
First, you need to decide what design you want, i.e. front loaded, back loaded, downward firing, small one woofer, large two woofer, etc. Given your big room I would recommend my choice: dual woofer front loaded horns, unless you want to maintain at same size as your current duos.

Once you decide the design, you have to decide the driver. You will never be able to decide on one, so the thing is group similar drivers and roll them, i.e. similar size drivers with the same impedance that can be crossed over at the same point with minor adjustments. So Leif could, for example, swap JBL or Altec or Radian with his TAD if he wanted to (well he has already tried many). Bill's design is different and while he cannot use TAD or Radian without adjusting his crossover point, other drivers like BMS, Lowther, are similar to AER in that regard at the same crossover point (though the AER is vastly superior).

So which design or driver should you start with? Well, the one you like and have heard, and the one you can get crossovers for. If you start doing the whole build yourself from the beginning based on theory, you might be lost forever. My suggestion is to assemble a proven design first, and then learn how to tweak crossovers etc so you always have a reference to come back to. For me the Altec 817 or Leif's can be assembled, and then I could roll drivers if I wanted to. I was more focused on Beryllium anyway, so when I got TAD 4003 I bought it, and I had educated confirmation it was the best. The other drivers are more easily available and can be bought any time. That said, if I bought a , for example, JBL 2482 (phenolic), I wouldn't know what to do with it since I haven't heard a good speaker with that driver yet, though I am sure you can fit it into Leif's design with a JBL tweeter adjusting crossover points slightly.

When you investigate drivers and designs you will see some horns go with certain drivers, e.g. Radial and JMLC with TAD types, additionally wooden multicells as well, and then tractrix especially for lower crossover points. Your crossover at approx. 2 times the cutoff for your horn.

As an example
Crossover: Altec 817 is 500 hz, Leif's 550.
Horn needs to be a approx 250 - 300 hz cutoff frequency to account for the above two crossovers. Can try radial, multicell, or JMLC with that cutoff
Below that dual woofers.
Decide on lower bass - with Altec 817 the vents in the midbass horn take over, with Leif's you need an additional big lower bass solution. Think about your room and visuals.
Start with keep things simple. Start with two way, check if you need tweeter, and add lower bass active. Some people believe in two way, some are willing to do more. If you get into building you will want to keep trying so might as well know where you can start and what you can roll. No one sits still in this hobby. At the same time, don't make the mistake of just building without a reference sound to get to
There’s a spinning movement with this morphing that might make it uncomfortable for some :eek: many years of upward and downward gyrating are required exercise first before attempting this task.
 

the sound of Tao

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I was thinking of it as a task to comfort me and a reassuring solace for our current void o_O... at least until they start up the airports here again at any rate.

It could just end up as an upgrade for my current horns... or perhaps an exercise in what not to do, though it’s probably more an investment in time rather than cost.

I am riding this beast rather than driving it... that unfortunately is the way of the Tao :)
 
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