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What's Best? The Absolute Sound or today's High End Systems?

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Back in the day of Harry Pearson and the evolution of the High End Audio, Pearson, in the pages of The Absolute Sound, defined the "absolute sound" as unamplified acoustic instruments and/or vocals performed in a real space, usually a concert hall. The evaluation of reproduction systems (HiFi equipment) was a based on a subjective comparison to the "absolute sound." The best systems came the closest to the sound of a live performance in a real space.

Over the last several years I have been a regular attendee of live music in San Francisco at Davies Symphony Hall and The Metropolitan Opera House. I have come to the realization that, in my opinion, the best sound and musical enjoyment happens at home with my highly evolved system, and I question weather it's worth the expense and effort to attend, other than for the occasional performance of a favorite artist.

I've tried various seating choices, always seeking the best. But more and more I have come to the conclusion that the best seat in the house (at least sonically) is at home! Do other WBF members share this view?
 
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MtnHam
Perhaps a final note on my part.
I regret having started this thread.
In the future I will be more inclined to remain silent.
 
A
MtnHam said:
Perhaps a final note on my part.
I regret having started this thread.
In the future I will be more inclined to remain silent.
Click to expand...

No need to regret anything, and no need to remain silent in the future. Thank you for starting the thread, it created an interesting discussion!

That sometimes people cannot get along in a discussion is human nature. This cannot be easily changed, and is absolutely no reason to avoid discussion in the first place.
 
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NorthStar
MtnHam said:
Perhaps a final note on my part.
I regret having started this thread.
In the future I will be more inclined to remain silent.
Click to expand...

Not your doing Ham, it takes us all into higher territories ...
We have assets to protect, beliefs to cultivate, frontiers to surmount ...
 
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Duke LeJeune
MtnHam said:
Perhaps a final note on my part.
I regret having started this thread.
In the future I will be more inclined to remain silent.
Click to expand...

You posted something well thought-out, based on years of experience, knowing that it would be controversial. I hope you would be willing to do so again the next time you have an unorthodox idea that evolves into an unorthodox conclusion after being repeatedly put to the test.
 
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A
I am blessed with being able to see the Cleveland Orchestra often. I can say after hearing many high end systems that no system sounds like that. They did the Respighi Roman trilogy not too long ago I can say that its a big no if you think a system can sound like that. It cannot and never will be able create the depth, air, and sheer size of the live performance.
 
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Duke LeJeune
assessor43 said:
I am blessed with being able to see the Cleveland Orchestra often. I can say after hearing many high end systems that no system sounds like that. They did the Respighi Roman trilogy not too long ago I can say that its a big no if you think a system can sound like that. It cannot and never will be able create the depth, air, and sheer size of the live performance.
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This is interesting... note that "depth, air and sheer size of the live performance" are spatial aspects.

Wolfgang Klippel undertook a study of what matters to listeners in stereo sound reproduction, and one of the things he found to matter a great deal was what he called the "feeling of space", which includes what we might call imaging, soundstaging, ambience, air, envelopment, immersion, and "sheer size".

Klippel found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 50% of what he called "naturalness", and which we might call "realism and accuracy". Moreover, he found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 70% of what he called "pleasantness", and which we might call "preference".

I would not have expected a “feeling of space” to make a 50% contribution to "realism and accuracy", and a 70% contribution to "preference"!!

So while the sound quality (including clarity) and tonal balance of a really good home stereo system might be competitive with a live orchestral performance, it is unlikely that the "feeling of space" of a home stereo system can compete with a live orchestral performance in a good hall. And apparently that "feeling of space" matters a lot to most people!
 
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NorthStar
The best music live concert experience is the one we are in the hall when it's happening in time and all the vibes are aligned with the stars to create that magic moment.

@ home there are magic moments too but not to the same level of intensity.
I remember @ some live concerts I had my heart enveloped tightly and warmly of magical emotions with tears in my eyes. The connection with the artist was direct and live with eye contact. The voice and the acoustic piano and cello and violin were coming from the instruments and a real human person.

A loudspeaker @ home with a tape recorder or turntable or music server or CD player or USB DAC or hi-fi headphones or crystal disc with gold plated surrounds and all connected through heavens cables (white) and distortion-less electrical flow after midnight when the lines are less busy simply cannot even dream of approaching this experience to anything close to say 0.000000000005%
Besides, it's immeasurable ... live.

So, what's best...the absolute live sound in that magic moment or home in that different magic moment? The question truly is futile. Life is to be lived live.
 
A
Duke LeJeune said:
This is interesting... note that "depth, air and sheer size of the live performance" are spatial aspects.

Wolfgang Klippel undertook a study of what matters to listeners in stereo sound reproduction, and one of the things he found to matter a great deal was what he called the "feeling of space", which includes what we might call imaging, soundstaging, ambience, air, envelopment, immersion, and "sheer size".

Klippel found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 50% of what he called "naturalness", and which we might call "realism and accuracy". Moreover, he found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 70% of what he called "pleasantness", and which we might call "preference".

I would not have expected a “feeling of space” to make a 50% contribution to "realism and accuracy", and a 70% contribution to "preference"!!

So while the sound quality (including clarity) and tonal balance of a really good home stereo system might be competitive with a live orchestral performance, it is unlikely that the "feeling of space" of a home stereo system can compete with a live orchestral performance in a good hall. And apparently that "feeling of space" matters a lot to most people!
Click to expand...

Interesting. I do find "sheer size" and feeling of space important in my own system, and while it does not portray the full size of an orchestra, to my taste it portrays enough size so that for me the lack of realistic size is not distracting anymore. It also scales nicely, meaning larger scale really does sound larger than small scale.

However, when I listen to other systems that are less successful in scaling, and sound similar sized on large and small scale, I don't find this really important. If other things, such as instrumental timbre and dynamics are engaging, I can easily forget about scale (I have more of a perceptional problem when small scale sounds too large rather than vice versa). Conversely, impressive scale does not matter to me if the sound itself is not convincing.

Also in my own system I find timbre, dynamics and clarity much more important than scale, even though as I said I value the latter too. I have worked on timbre and clarity a lot over the years, and dynamics come more easily with the type of system that I have. I take the spatial prowess of my system as an added bonus, but if that were lacking I would not mind as much, and I have not specifically worked on it either (what I did spend a lot of time on is fighting too recessed images and artificial depth, but that was a problem specific to my room which is now solved since a year or two).
 
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microstrip
Duke LeJeune said:
This is interesting... note that "depth, air and sheer size of the live performance" are spatial aspects.

Wolfgang Klippel undertook a study of what matters to listeners in stereo sound reproduction, and one of the things he found to matter a great deal was what he called the "feeling of space", which includes what we might call imaging, soundstaging, ambience, air, envelopment, immersion, and "sheer size".

Klippel found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 50% of what he called "naturalness", and which we might call "realism and accuracy". Moreover, he found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 70% of what he called "pleasantness", and which we might call "preference".

I would not have expected a “feeling of space” to make a 50% contribution to "realism and accuracy", and a 70% contribution to "preference"!!

So while the sound quality (including clarity) and tonal balance of a really good home stereo system might be competitive with a live orchestral performance, it is unlikely that the "feeling of space" of a home stereo system can compete with a live orchestral performance in a good hall. And apparently that "feeling of space" matters a lot to most people!
Click to expand...

Yes, these are interesting numbers. I suppose you are addressing the Klippel work summarized in the F. Toole book. We should remember that Klippel and Toole view of "naturalness" is quite different from what is usually being referred in WBF posts and their views on the capabilities of stereo were far less ambitious than those of audiophiles. The micro-cues that we cherish and enhance to give us the perception of space and 3D are simply ignored by them!
 
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ddk
Duke LeJeune said:
This is interesting... note that "depth, air and sheer size of the live performance" are spatial aspects.

Wolfgang Klippel undertook a study of what matters to listeners in stereo sound reproduction, and one of the things he found to matter a great deal was what he called the "feeling of space", which includes what we might call imaging, soundstaging, ambience, air, envelopment, immersion, and "sheer size".

Klippel found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 50% of what he called "naturalness", and which we might call "realism and accuracy". Moreover, he found that this "feeling of space" accounted for roughly 70% of what he called "pleasantness", and which we might call "preference".

I would not have expected a “feeling of space” to make a 50% contribution to "realism and accuracy", and a 70% contribution to "preference"!!

So while the sound quality (including clarity) and tonal balance of a really good home stereo system might be competitive with a live orchestral performance, it is unlikely that the "feeling of space" of a home stereo system can compete with a live orchestral performance in a good hall. And apparently that "feeling of space" matters a lot to most people!
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If the source has the resolution and the system is up to it you'll be surprised how much of the venue; space, ambience, etc. which can include studio captures is available is some recordings. The scale of a booth, hall or nightclub is all very different a high resolution system with wide dispersion speakers can recreate that venue and moment in time by wrapping the listener with sound. As far as wether that's 50% or not there are other aspects of the recording and system that can change the balance.

david
 
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tima
Al M. said:
However, when I listen to other systems that are less successful in scaling, and sound similar sized on large and small scale, I don't find this really important. If other things, such as instrumental timbre and dynamics are engaging, I can easily forget about scale (I have more of a perceptional problem when small scale sounds too large rather than vice versa). Conversely, impressive scale does not matter to me if the sound itself is not convincing.
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There are no psychoacoustic markings in the score. :-o

David mentioned boothes. Sometimes it is a bit disconcerting to hear different booth ambience from two singers side by side.

If I imagine myself in the hall with the orchestra laid out before me that that is usually enough scale for believability. Sometimes that's orchestra level, sometimes the loge, sometimes higher up. The atmospherics (sense of venue, air, ambience, side and back wall, etc.) are important to my experience. And how well do we render that "shadow orchestra" off stage in Titan. :->
 
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RogerD
The visual presentation of the music for me can be more captivating then the music itself. I view the soundstage very important especially when listening to classical or most well done recordings. The room seams to disappear which can have a large effect on the illusion. It’s one of those things that once I experienced it, there was no going back.
 
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RBFC
Roger D touched on the perceptional aspects of attending a live performance. There are other stimuli/factors present at a live performance which are absent at home. Watching the physical movement of the performers, checking out the audience members, enjoying the architectural space, and the psycho-emotional component of “being in a crowd” all change our perception and our ability to concentrate on the sound. At home, listening through a system whose sonic footprint we innately understand, we may well be able to more closely delineate fine musical details which can be lost in the moment while attending a live event.

In my mind, attending live events provides enjoyment that contains other elements besides sound quality.

Lee
 
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A
tima said:
The atmospherics (sense of venue, air, ambience, side and back wall, etc.) are important to my experience. And how well do we render that "shadow orchestra" off stage in Titan. :->
Click to expand...

Yes, the depth/distance perception of that offstage orchestra in the finale of Mahler's Second Symphony (I assume that is what you meant) can sound at home almost as spectacular as live (sitting close to main orchestra), if your system and room are up to it.
 
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K
We have an issue if posters are correct that classical music and live jazz are the standards for any definition of absolute sound - in that no one under 50 listens to either genre. Most of the boomers grew up with classical music in its heyday but that was decades ago. Opera has been dead even longer lol.

How are these younger listeners evaluating hifi gear now and in the future. It's certainly not by going to the BSO or Disney Hall. In fact, many of them are headphones listeners which is quite the opposite.
 
the sound of Tao
KeithR said:
We have an issue if posters are correct that classical music and live jazz are the standards for any definition of absolute sound - in that no one under 50 listens to either genre. Most of the boomers grew up with classical music in its heyday but that was decades ago. Opera has been dead even longer lol.

How are these younger listeners evaluating hifi gear now and in the future. It's certainly not by going to the BSO or Disney Hall. In fact, many of them are headphones listeners which is quite the opposite.
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Lol. But since there are only 7 audiophiles under 50 years old on the entire planet it may not be that relevant what music they listen to Keith and at least two of them (Ked and Bill) are committed classical music lover and concert goers or musos. Across the world classical music is still being taught and played and listened to by all ages. Jazz music is alive and some of the most interesting jazz is happening with a lot of musos who are young and also create and play with hip hop, rap, rnb fusion.

As a music lover first I do love many genres of music including old school and new jazz and classical and so does my music loving 20 year old nephew. He has many great 50’s and 60’s jazz on vinyl but also streams plus has a great love for classical because his step father over the years has played him some of the best of classical recordings. As a typical twenty year old he would also consider many of the under 50 audiophiles as still rather old in the scheme of things.

Big picture classical and jazz music lovers have not really been in the majority for a long time, but it is interesting that listening to a great sound system can often broaden people’s taste. Btw my 20 year old nephew now has my old harbeth 30.1s and my old dac and some straightwire cables I had spare and is currently eyeing off one of my SET amps and wants all three of my speakers when I (as a 50 plus dude) shuffle off to visit the choir invisible. So he is unfortunately also now at risk of becoming a 20 year old audiophile as well as a committed music lover. May the universe protect his very vulnerable species status.
 
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PeterA
KeithR said:
We have an issue if posters are correct that classical music and live jazz are the standards for any definition of absolute sound - in that no one under 50 listens to either genre. Most of the boomers grew up with classical music in its heyday but that was decades ago. Opera has been dead even longer lol.

How are these younger listeners evaluating hifi gear now and in the future. It's certainly not by going to the BSO or Disney Hall. In fact, many of them are headphones listeners which is quite the opposite.
Click to expand...

Keith, you make valid points. However, those reading and participating in this particular thread do seem to use classical music and live jazz as standards. At least some of them do. And some of us go to the BSO. I'm going to Vienna in February to listen to the VPO for five days of rehearsals and evening performances at the Musikverein. You might not care about that, and that is fine. But are you suggesting that we somehow replace the group who is reading this thread and posting comments with some group of younger listeners who use headphones and don't like opera? Perhaps you can find them discussing this topic on some computer audio forum.

BTW, I went to Vienna seven years ago and spend five days listening to opera rehearsals and evening performances at the State Opera. It was fantastic. If you think opera is dead, you haven't been to Vienna and seen the passion over there. The audience was actually a lot younger than at the BSO.

We all have different tastes Keith, and that is what is so wonderful about music. It can bring people together.
 
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thedudeabides
KeithR said:
How are these younger listeners evaluating hifi gear now and in the future. It's certainly not by going to the BSO or Disney Hall. In fact, many of them are headphones listeners which is quite the opposite.
Click to expand...

I believe they are in a paradox and come to the show with an entirely different sense of reality and values given the current state of audio and the different choices available today. Some "old school" manufacturers are sticking with the past marketing techniques and charge unrealistic, unaffordable prices for those that are so inclined to pursue superior sound. Others are adapting providing good sq, competitive pricing, and offering features that todays lifestyle and music delivering technologies provide. Ultimately, I think the "others" will prevail.

The fact that hi end brick and mortar stores are disappearing and will continue to do so says it all. And the obvious fact that many hi end brands are being consolidated under one large corporate umbrella as a way to support very limited sales. Think Harmon Kardon and Paradigm as examples.

Folks like me and others in their "senior years" are rapidly becoming the dinosaurs of the hi end industry.
 
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