KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

DaveC

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One of my goals for my speaker is the ability to perform at a high level in an average space. A point source horn is ideal for this imo. Of course this is a difficult proposition but there are horns you can listen to near field. A wideband mid or single driver in a horn like AER is my choice but a speaker that uses the BDS coax compression driver would work too. Or a Danley horn... :)

When comparing my horns to my cone n domes in the same room the difference is obvious with the horn offering a more immersive 3D experience. More direct vs reflected sound.
 

Al M.

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When comparing my horns to my cone n domes in the same room the difference is obvious with the horn offering a more immersive 3D experience. More direct vs reflected sound.

This is what I would expect if you don't sit very close to the dynamic speakers in your large room. Then you get a fair amount of reflected sound.
 

morricab

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Sure, I'm saying the same thing. Instruments don't need 3d soundstages to image well.
They can image well (horizontally and vertically well placed and separated in space) and still be FLAT (like a cardboard cutout) and pasted onto a FLAT soundstage...I have heard it many times in many systems. I have found that if the soundstage is flat (little to no depth regardless of the recording) then to a great degree the images will be the same way. This is because they both rely on good low level resolution, lack of noise (or at least intermodulated noise) and distortion...particularly in upper frequencies.

Some exceptions with speakers would be a significant dip in the presence region that puts all sounds further away than they should be but this creates the same effect all the time. A system should breathe depending on the recording not have a constant perspective.
 

Folsom

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I guess I'm not sure how flat is flat... because I can't agree. I don't think you're imaging well at all if the instruments don't sound like they have shape.
 

213Cobra

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They all have shape in even a middling-setup system. Question is how much of the perceived depth is genuine vs. synthesized ear candy. Even "flat" presentations give you instruments with shape. It's the fake synthesized implied distances between instruments that triggers the cue that you've optimized for something not remotely real.

Phil
 

DaveC

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This is what I would expect if you don't sit very close to the dynamic speakers in your large room. Then you get a fair amount of reflected sound.

Yes, exactly... a horn can offer the same ratio of direct to reflected sound while sitting further away from the speakers, while also eliminating a lot of 1st reflections. The horns can also be placed closer to boundaries as a result, which makes them even more room friendly.

In a dedicated room the reflections can be managed but in a living area you may get lucky... or not... :)
 

DaveC

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Dave, I disagree about stage depth. But that isn't whether an instrument sounds like a flat piece of paper or, well, an instrument. The cues are real but without elaboration from delayed sound or grounding boxes... they're limited. You have to record in a live setting with something far behind something else, and have the bandwidth set to pick up those cues. All of that is mostly avoided because having mics picking up a lot of bandwidth outside of the voice/instrument they must pickup just dilutes the overall mix and causes problems with bleeding, feedback loops, etc. You can artificially add some back in but... You're faced with the fact that your stereo isn't in a concert hall reflecting sounds from different locations, including needing speakers placed at different depths.

If soundstage depth tickles your fancy you should be looking at dynamic/dipole/OB type speakers and a room that allows you to pull them out a sufficient amount. MikeL's is a great example. No one else's stereo I've heard creates that illusion for something like a chamber classical piece like his. His speakers allow the passing of the audio backward over smooth shapes, and they're no where near his back wall. With rock the mix doesn't always give you that sort of projection of illusion that's perfectly layed out because it wasn't recorded in a literal room of similar stature with mic's picking up a lot of it - it really depends on the engineer/s working on it, too.

Sure, you don't get depth without the info being there in the recording. But think about what we hear when something is further away... we hear more reflected sound, which will be in the recording. A system that can accurately reproduce the nuances of the reflected sound will produce soundstage depth, the image will sound like it's coming from beyond the room boundaries in many cases. If the subtle nuances of this are smoothed out with warm sounding distortion, or mangled by poor room acoustics then you lose that sense of depth. But you also lose details that make the sound seem real.

So, we get all these spatial cues from the recording and imo we don't want more of them from the room, at least not in a way that masks detail. Your comment about OB/Dipole/pulled out into the room is only one way to go, and most people don't have the luxury of a large room with speakers pulled out into the middle. I'll admit the AlsyVox ribbons are possibly the best speakers I've experienced but they're expensive and require a large room and careful setup with the speakers pulled out from the front wall quite a bit. With my speakers, the point source horn, you can get excellent depth (if it's in the recording) in a speaker that can be right up against the front wall, it's simply more "room-friendly".
 

DaveC

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They all have shape in even a middling-setup system. Question is how much of the perceived depth is genuine vs. synthesized ear candy. Even "flat" presentations give you instruments with shape. It's the fake synthesized implied distances between instruments that triggers the cue that you've optimized for something not remotely real.

Phil


But, if it's in the recording don't you want your system to reproduce it?

How can your system possibly sound realistic if it can't reproduce what's on the recording, even if it's "synthesized ear candy". If you don't like "synthesized ear candy" just don't listen to recordings that are manipulated in such a way since you don't enjoy it?
 

213Cobra

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But, if it's in the recording don't you want your system to reproduce it?

How can your system possibly sound realistic if it can't reproduce what's on the recording, even if it's "synthesized ear candy". If you don't like "synthesized ear candy" just don't listen to recordings that are manipulated in such a way since you don't enjoy it?

What the system can do is not the question. What the room and practical setup supports is. Presuming you can ever know what's in a commercial recording, which we really cannot. My only point on this is that depth is the most synthetic of the three dimensions to a soundstage in stereo and modern production, and the least important objectively. Less depth doesn't make the sound sources flat. It's a matter of how fake or genuine are the spatial cues between them. More to the point, most modern production pales in realistic depth compared to roughly pre-1962 well-made recordings. Many of those, including mono, project plenty of natural depth even if your speakers are shoved tight against the wall, which tells me that the belief that speakers have to be well into the room to portray depth is in part a reaction to the lack of natural depth in modern multi-track recordings, so people are seeking ways to synthesize a sense of depth further through other means.

Phil
 

Folsom

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I think Phil is getting at it’s in a lot less recordings at a level a stereo would naturally produce without some coercion. I agree. Coercion isn’t necessarily wrong though. I just get way more out of other aspects, and am object to anything that might subtract from them.

I still wonder where Keith lands a little bit, given that he’s entertaining speakers that aren’t 3D monsters. I know he said he likes it for electronica though. I find well produced electronica has a sort of depth to it that’s kind of 4th dimension or something, it sounds deep whether the soundstage extends forever or doesn’t.
 

Al M.

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I still wonder where Keith lands a little bit, given that he’s entertaining speakers that aren’t 3D monsters. I know he said he likes it for electronica though. I find well produced electronica has a sort of depth to it that’s kind of 4th dimension or something, it sounds deep whether the soundstage extends forever or doesn’t.

Yes, there's a lot of depth in electronica, and sometimes it appears to be essential to the message, like for example in Steve Roach's "The Magnificent Void" where you "fall into it" if your system manages to reproduce that depth.
 
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DaveC

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What the system can do is not the question. What the room and practical setup supports is. Presuming you can ever know what's in a commercial recording, which we really cannot. My only point on this is that depth is the most synthetic of the three dimensions to a soundstage in stereo and modern production, and the least important objectively. Less depth doesn't make the sound sources flat. It's a matter of how fake or genuine are the spatial cues between them. More to the point, most modern production pales in realistic depth compared to roughly pre-1962 well-made recordings. Many of those, including mono, project plenty of natural depth even if your speakers are shoved tight against the wall, which tells me that the belief that speakers have to be well into the room to portray depth is in part a reaction to the lack of natural depth in modern multi-track recordings, so people are seeking ways to synthesize a sense of depth further through other means.

Phil


Ok, I see what you're saying... setup could produce depth that ISN'T on the recording at all.

I'd agree... setup can often produce spatial cues made by room reflections, and if this is audible it'll probably interfere with spatial cues on the recording. I'm not in favor of this despite Harman's testing showing preference for this in some circumstances. I think it detracts from the goal of high fidelity and prevents a really immersive "you are there" experience from occurring if the recording supports it, instead you may get a nice soundstage of the performers being in your room. The issue with this is the room reflections are always the same and it can "homogenize" the recordings.
 
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spiritofmusic

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What is people's thoughts on a kind of 4-channel "stereo" I might investigate? Using a processor that leaves front two channels unaffected, but reverses phase to a couple of full range rear channels w fixed 15ms delay w some Hafler processing. Aiming for zero change to main music at front but some low level immersion from rear.

The processor is the now-discontinued Naim AV1 unit, and I would go with some form of Zus behind me.
 

morricab

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What the system can do is not the question. What the room and practical setup supports is. Presuming you can ever know what's in a commercial recording, which we really cannot. My only point on this is that depth is the most synthetic of the three dimensions to a soundstage in stereo and modern production, and the least important objectively. Less depth doesn't make the sound sources flat. It's a matter of how fake or genuine are the spatial cues between them. More to the point, most modern production pales in realistic depth compared to roughly pre-1962 well-made recordings. Many of those, including mono, project plenty of natural depth even if your speakers are shoved tight against the wall, which tells me that the belief that speakers have to be well into the room to portray depth is in part a reaction to the lack of natural depth in modern multi-track recordings, so people are seeking ways to synthesize a sense of depth further through other means.

Phil

I disagree on a number of points: 1) Depth is not any more synthetic than any other dimension but it is the more difficult one to reproduce correctly because it is so dependent on the accurate retrieval of a lot of low level information that can be easily masked by speaker issues, such as diffraction, breakup and other resonances, electronics issues, such as high order and IM distortions as well as noise and distortion disguised as noise (creating a false, signal correlated floor), signal cables (picking up RFI) and power (much more important than I was willing to admit for a long time).

2) Most rooms will support far more than most people believe they can...once you start addressing the points above you might question the need for much room treatment.

3) More depth and a more immersive 3d soundstage is nearly always in the right direction regardless of the recording...where it might be false is if all recordings sound the same in this manner. There should be a high variability but hopefully you have enough really good recordings to evaluate the changes you would get from recording to recording. Whether a depth is real from the recording or fake from adding of reverb should still be audible as depth.

It is no wonder that once people start addressing these sources of information damaging noise and distortion in their systems that the report blacker backgrounds, more natural highs and timbres and...here it is...improved soundstage depth and ambience as well as more 3d instruments and more accurate placement WITHIN that soundfield.

No one is debating that recordings have highly variable soundstage depth and the best ones go a long way towards giving a realistic portrayal.
 

213Cobra

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I disagree on a number of points: 1) Depth is not any more synthetic than any other dimension but it is the more difficult one to reproduce correctly because it is so dependent on the accurate retrieval of a lot of low level information that can be easily masked by speaker issues, such as diffraction, breakup and other resonances, electronics issues, such as high order and IM distortions as well as noise and distortion disguised as noise (creating a false, signal correlated floor), signal cables (picking up RFI) and power (much more important than I was willing to admit for a long time).

2) Most rooms will support far more than most people believe they can...once you start addressing the points above you might question the need for much room treatment.

3) More depth and a more immersive 3d soundstage is nearly always in the right direction regardless of the recording...where it might be false is if all recordings sound the same in this manner. There should be a high variability but hopefully you have enough really good recordings to evaluate the changes you would get from recording to recording. Whether a depth is real from the recording or fake from adding of reverb should still be audible as depth.

It is no wonder that once people start addressing these sources of information damaging noise and distortion in their systems that the report blacker backgrounds, more natural highs and timbres and...here it is...improved soundstage depth and ambience as well as more 3d instruments and more accurate placement WITHIN that soundfield.

No one is debating that recordings have highly variable soundstage depth and the best ones go a long way towards giving a realistic portrayal.

Well, those are postulates. I characterize depth in stereo as synthetic because it is the dimension that sounds by far least anchored in the way unamplified music in soundspaces sounds. In fact, it's generally not realistic at all. But it's interesting and engaging to the point where people chase more of it at the expense of more fundamental and realistic imaging. Now, having vast experience over a huge variety of speakers exhibiting various combinations of the distortions you cite -- or the absence of them -- listening to any has led me to the same conclusion. Depth portrayed via any speaker design or type presents depth synthetically, but even speakers flawed in the ways you cite can portray reasonably natural depth from a certain generation of recordings spanning perhaps less than 15 years. You could get depth sort of grounded in some kind of reality from those recordings even back in the days of zipcord speaker wire, speakers topping out at 14kHz, time-aligned nothing and horrid 1st generation transistor amps circa 1964.

I do agree cleaning up your system is the right place to start. Don't use room treatments to fix systems errors and ailments. Room treatments, if any, should be light. What this industry calls "blacker backgrounds" certainly leads to more revelation. WRT perception of depth, I find that to mostly reveal even more clearly how synthetic it is in stereo compared to width and height dimensioning. Timbre, event clarity, timing are better benefits. Spatially, you almost never know what the real soundstage was and if the recording never had everyone in the same room together, it's totally faked.

More depth than is possible in the real performance isn't the right direction -- it becomes a distortion itself, ear candy as much as high 2nd-order harmonic distortion in old sweet-sounding tube (valve) amps. Reverb, btw, does simulate an enlarged space but it doesn't add to perception of depth in performer or instruments placements in a soundstage. If the recording has reverb added, that's essentially and instrument itself -- part of the plan. But reverb doesn't tell me Brian and Dennis Wilson are relative to each other in the depth dimension. Nor does adding it to make a live recording hall wet, change the placement of instruments and people in an orchestra. Point is, recordings that actually capture reality-grounded depth almost never need placement acrobatics to uncork the depth dimension in the soundstage. You don't have to have your speakers 3-6 feet into the room to hear and have it. When you have to pull your speakers into the room to find depth, that tells me it is not likely there to begin with. It's telling that I usually see people striving for depth optimization using modern multi-track recordings, almost none of which have any actual, natural dimensioning.

Phil
 

Folsom

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I disagree on a number of points: 1) Depth is not any more synthetic than any other dimension but it is the more difficult one to reproduce correctly because it is so dependent on the accurate retrieval of a lot of low level information that can be easily masked by speaker issues, such as diffraction, breakup and other resonances, electronics issues, such as high order and IM distortions as well as noise and distortion disguised as noise (creating a false, signal correlated floor), signal cables (picking up RFI) and power (much more important than I was willing to admit for a long time).

2) Most rooms will support far more than most people believe they can...once you start addressing the points above you might question the need for much room treatment.

3) More depth and a more immersive 3d soundstage is nearly always in the right direction regardless of the recording...where it might be false is if all recordings sound the same in this manner. There should be a high variability but hopefully you have enough really good recordings to evaluate the changes you would get from recording to recording. Whether a depth is real from the recording or fake from adding of reverb should still be audible as depth.

It is no wonder that once people start addressing these sources of information damaging noise and distortion in their systems that the report blacker backgrounds, more natural highs and timbres and...here it is...improved soundstage depth and ambience as well as more 3d instruments and more accurate placement WITHIN that soundfield.

No one is debating that recordings have highly variable soundstage depth and the best ones go a long way towards giving a realistic portrayal.

Uhuh... except that it’s been repeatedly proven that RFI enhances 3Dness, at least where “grounding” boxes and devices are applicable, “active noise protection” cable systems, and dirty transistors are deployed.

It’s exceedingly rare to find a stereo that obliterates spatial information, like you may not have heard one. The problem is they tend to do it somewhat poorly but if you can inject enough low level ripple you’ll be able to perceive it well, and exaggerated.

The biggest issue with reading depth on speakers that are close to a wall is the mental confusion of seeing the wall. So even when what Phil says is true, it’s not always the event one might expect. Personally I think listening for 3D, spatial stuff, while entertaining is more listening to the stereo than the music if you’re having to think about it.
 
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the sound of Tao

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I disagree on a number of points: 1) Depth is not any more synthetic than any other dimension but it is the more difficult one to reproduce correctly because it is so dependent on the accurate retrieval of a lot of low level information that can be easily masked by speaker issues, such as diffraction, breakup and other resonances, electronics issues, such as high order and IM distortions as well as noise and distortion disguised as noise (creating a false, signal correlated floor), signal cables (picking up RFI) and power (much more important than I was willing to admit for a long time).

2) Most rooms will support far more than most people believe they can...once you start addressing the points above you might question the need for much room treatment.

3) More depth and a more immersive 3d soundstage is nearly always in the right direction regardless of the recording...where it might be false is if all recordings sound the same in this manner. There should be a high variability but hopefully you have enough really good recordings to evaluate the changes you would get from recording to recording. Whether a depth is real from the recording or fake from adding of reverb should still be audible as depth.

It is no wonder that once people start addressing these sources of information damaging noise and distortion in their systems that the report blacker backgrounds, more natural highs and timbres and...here it is...improved soundstage depth and ambience as well as more 3d instruments and more accurate placement WITHIN that soundfield.

No one is debating that recordings have highly variable soundstage depth and the best ones go a long way towards giving a realistic portrayal.
Great post... Brad I figure you’ve nailed it. I was struggling to put the range of underlying issues and influences in soundstage reproduction into an understanding but the elements that you bring up seem to really reflect what happens.

Some speakers and also some electronics tend to move every recording up front while others push performance just in a flat way back.

But when you have speakers that can give all the cues and are very coherent and highly resolving electronics that (especially in digital setups) are absolutely well shielded from RFI then the front to back very much deepens and the positioning of instruments within the stage becomes more clear and consistent in a proportional way based on the quality of the recording in capturing that.

I’d agree the room needs to be good but not some perfect recording studio environment to achieve this. I have had three rooms that all were luckily very good but two were still living spaces just using minimal treatments and all three spaces have managed to get great depth and balance in after a lot of care with setup.

Absolutely accurately dialling in speakers is however I find critical in this as well. Takes months after initial burn in to then finesse the speakers just into that exact rightness where everything then completely pops into place.

The things you mention to assist in bringing out the recordings soundstage are also the same things that correlate with bringing benefits to tonality, timbre, cohesiveness, dynamic nuance, rhythm and flow and a sense of realness and natural musicality. In the end it is about rightness and that is always the point for me where I stop listening to the sounds and worrying about fixing the system and just kick back and enjoy listening the music.
 
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213Cobra

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Uhuh... except that it’s been repeatedly proven that RFI enhances 3Dness, at least where “grounding” boxes and devices are applicable, “active noise protection” cable systems, and dirty transistors are deployed.

It’s exceedingly rare to find a stereo that obliterates spatial information, like you may not have heard one. The problem is they tend to do it somewhat poorly but if you can inject enough low level ripple you’ll be able to perceive it well, and exaggerated.

The biggest issue with reading depth on speakers that are close to a wall is the mental confusion of seeing the wall. So even when what Phil says is true, it’s not always the event one might expect. Personally I think listening for 3D, spatial stuff, while entertaining is more listening to the stereo than the music if you’re having to think about it.

Emphasis added above is mine: I absolutely agree with that. -Phil
 

Al M.

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Ok, I see what you're saying... setup could produce depth that ISN'T on the recording at all.

I'd agree... setup can often produce spatial cues made by room reflections, and if this is audible it'll probably interfere with spatial cues on the recording. I'm not in favor of this despite Harman's testing showing preference for this in some circumstances. I think it detracts from the goal of high fidelity and prevents a really immersive "you are there" experience from occurring if the recording supports it, instead you may get a nice soundstage of the performers being in your room. The issue with this is the room reflections are always the same and it can "homogenize" the recordings.

I'd agree as well. For a long while my system was producing too much depth, due to room reflections. Almost everything sounded too recessed; hall information or reverb on recordings was exaggerated.

The two recordings that I described in my previous post:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/page-87#post-598115

would have sounded differently. The first one which now sounds direct would have sounded with more hall information than actually on the recording, and less direct, the second one would have sounded far too recessed, to the point of being painful.

Only careful and quite extensive room treatment finally normalized the situation.

Here I also disagree with Brad (morricab). The room acoustics play a large role, next to electronics, in portraying convincing depth.
 
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Al M.

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It’s not just soundstage depth but also palpability and 3D of instruments in the sound field....both of which are more readily damaged, IME, by the electronics and power. Speakers of course play their part but the real damage is electronic.

Yes, electronics can do real damage to spatial depth, palpability and hall information. These are dependent on low level signal that is easily truncated or destroyed. After I upgraded my previous amps, Audio Innovations Second Audio triode monoblocks, with BorderPatrol external power supplies, I was amazed at how much better the system portrayed spatial depth. The internal power supplies of the amps suppressed low level spatial information by their electronic noise, and made everything sound flatter. The much cleaner external power supplies lowered the noise floor dramatically, and suddenly all this low level spatial information came through.
 
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