Yeah well if it ain’t broke...
Being wholly satisfied is rather tricky in this game so you probably made best decision to stay as is.
The Anima is still very sensitive even with your levelled setting version.
What's best in highly sensitive/efficient speakers.
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Yeah well if it ain’t broke...
Being wholly satisfied is rather tricky in this game so you probably made best decision to stay as is.
The Anima is still very sensitive even with your levelled setting version.
I have tried biamping in the past and always found it a mixed bag of outcomes for me. After years of trying a range of approaches I’ve ended up with that just often simpler works better for me... I realised that I’m completely a coherency junkie and so less is more is usually the very best way and is my compromise of choice.
For people not so sensitive or put off by incoherency mismatches caused by things like a mix of amps isn’t as critical so for some it’s a great way to go given the other benefits of the approach.
A little bit of adjustability can go a long ways!
Note that a set of equal loudness curves predicts a 5 dB change in SPL at 40 Hz will be SUBJECTIVELY comparable to a 10 dB change in SPL at 1 kHz. The implication is that if the low end is down by 5 dB relative to the mids and highs, that's HUGE. So by bringing the level of the mids and highs down to better match with the low end, you are probably making a huge audible improvement.
On another, again somewhat counter-intuitive note, Toole and Olive report that a gently downward-sloping response curve is perceived by most listeners as being "flat", while a truly "flat" curve is perceived by most listeners as "bright" or "tipped up". Imo the goal for high-end home audio is not a measured "flat" response, but rather a perceived "flat" response.
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Well, a fair bit of music is produced a little strong in the highs. But I would assert that most gear is a little on the fatiguing side so people welcome the tip down.
The largest reason I've experienced over the years is the room is too small. Shows at hotels can often be an issue due to small room size and awkward configurations of rooms, with larger spaces being either unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Sometimes the choice is to take a less than ideal room or not go to the show.
Hotel rooms can also have issues with construction, like very flexible walls, lots of glass, or built-in furniture that can't be moved. AC power quality is often an issue as well.
People make mistakes that gear can't account for in setup or system synergy. Often a room is shared by manufacturers whose gear isn't a perfect match together.
Excusable or not, it's the truth that sometimes folks don't get good sound from otherwise good gear because of these issues.
Lots of folks put down active/dsp'ed woofers because there have been plenty of questionable speakers featuring active bass, but there's no way I'd go back. Having a SET amp only reproduce mids/highs allows it to operate at far lower distortion levels and achieve higher SPLs as well.
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On the woofer end, you can have a very efficient woofer system and a small SET is still going to be the wrong choice in most cases. I'd look at power handling, cone weight, excursion and loading... if you have a woofer system that can handle 1000W it's a big clue that a small tube amp isn't the best choice, even if efficiency is very high. OTOH, a woofer with a very light cone and low excursion capability would probably work better with low powered amps.
Totally agree - the infamous B&K curve / research says it all (seen below).
Actually I recommend all audiophiles to have a play with target curves using dsp packages if you are into computer audio. It taught me a lot about what my ears liked and disliked. A 20hz to 20khz flat profile is ear bleeding for me.
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Hi Dave,
Agree with your points. Have you tried a line level passive crossover to alleviate the “burden” on the SET powered mid/high? I am thinking of building line level passive for my current project such that my 46 SET amp only “sees” >250hz. My rationale is lower distortion due to not being required to reproduce the current heavy stuff. Also I am using active Mosfet driven bass.
I would agree with this assertion if and only if all factors including the room acoustics are controllable. And that is seldom the case.
Line level xo can be a good solution if you can incorporate it into your preamp or driver section, such as reducing the value of a coupling cap to form a 1st order slope, so you're not increasing parts or complexity. Otherwise I prefer a speaker level passive xo vs adding another box and pair of ic cables.
That sounds interesting Bill. Will be looking forward to that outcome.
Of all the SS types that I’ve tried to match in for subs with a tube amp for the main speaker mosfet has always been the closest in spirit to the valve and made for the better transition.
Perhaps it was because the mosfet balance was shaped differently and tended to focus you in the mids and with a fuller midbass and then just ever so slightly rounding out at the extremes.
It still had great bass authority and fullness but was less overtly different in character to when I had tried to use a more linear transistor amp where it was just essentially less close in signature and nature to the tube amp above.
If I go forwards with a pair of OB subs for the pap horns I’m toying with either just going passive crossover and using the LM SET for the whole signal or alternatively also crossing to a good mosfet amp for down low... am thinking of using a kinki integrated which I can then easily attenuate separately to the LM SET... as a plan b I could use it for a home theatre setup if the 2.5way passive crossover just works better in the long run.
Does anybody know anybody who actually owns Tune Audio Avatons (my single favorite loudspeaker for the reproduction of piano)?
Kedar heard these a few times. Lampi Lukasz used to own them.
If it were me, I would go active for your open baffle subs. Also not sure how many drivers you were planning per side, but I would advise to not be shy when designing lol. I feel people underestimate how many you actually need to get the bass response you desire.
Was going four x 15 inch woofers per side using cone to magnet isobaric loading to max out the efficiency and also minimise the woofer distortion with the isobaric loading... which still gives me the dipole.
Either way I will start just pure OB... I have some sound anchor stands which will be a perfect platform to build off. I’ve also got a good pair of 2.5m speaker cables which I can use to give me some flexibility with the positioning of the subs beyond the horns.
If the OB outcome isn’t exactly where I want it to go it’s easy to then just reconfigure for vented or slot loaded.
I’ll do external crossover for these as well. Also I can then go for an inductor which is specifically designed for high end sub application.
Either way I will start just pure OB... I have some sound anchor stands which will be a perfect platform to build off. I’ve also got a good pair of 2.5m speaker cables which I can use to give me some flexibility with the positioning of the subs beyond the horns.
If the OB outcome isn’t exactly where I want it to go it’s easy to then just reconfigure for vented or slot loaded.
I’ll do external crossover for these as well. Also I can then go for an inductor which is specifically designed for high end sub application.
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Dear Tao,
What was your analysis and decision process regarding four 15 inch woofers rather than a larger number of smaller (and possibly faster) 10 inch or 12 inch woofers?
What was your analysis and decision process regarding four 15 inch woofers rather than a larger number of smaller (and possibly faster) 10 inch or 12 inch woofers?
That sounds perfect. I would have also gone 4 x 15” per side. Another easy solution for you is to buy a 2 plate amps (including own crossover) and use the high level input.
Hi Ron,
Mostly coherence
I’ll use exactly the same neodymium 15 inch woofers already used for the pap horns OB but just in a narrow band application sub with isobaric loading.Two things can potentially happen at this point I’m thinking. I’ll either find I just want to add a mild extension and authority to the paps but not forego ultimate coherence and so just integrate it all in a passive 2.5 way crossover being driven from just the one pair of 805 output tubes. The minimalist in me is very attracted by that notion of SET purity. But only by building and listening will I ever be sure.
I will also try a plan B and go active for the subs with a mosfet SS. Bill’s logic in this approach is also very much worth investigating.
I am just guessing that 4 x 15 inchers for a sub will give it the authority I’m looking for and that using the same drivers all the way from 300hz down (2 x 15 OB woofers and 4 x 15 OB subwoofers will be a good approach).
Either way I’d very much like to start simple and build up to it and enjoy the discovery of what works and what doesn’t along the way.
I’d likely try slot loading the four subwoofers before then going for more woofers. I’m trying to avoid overscaling with the subs and it’s just simply easier (and more economical) to just work upwards.
I’m a complete newb at this so just moving towards learning and having some fun along the way.
I do think that the further you reach down the higher you need to reach up so if all this lovely bass foundation requires more air to bring it to a good weighted sense of centred-ness I could then also try floating a supertweeter in on top.
So Plan C is to just then give myself a completely modular and detachable OB platform which I can then experiment with a different approach altogether for then a four way horn setup as alternative with a pair of iwata horns for a 300hz and above... so an iwata wide bander with an iwata suoertweeter. I do love the form of the iwata horns and so may just end up with two alternative horn setups. Surely two pairs of horns can’t hurt
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