Which DACs are upgradeable? Any brands fighting obsolescence?

caesar · Dec 11, 2018

The price of the $80K dCS Scarlatti boxes that were released a decade ago sell for 20-25 cents on the dollar. Ditto for MSB platinum DACs from 5-6 years ago...And for Esoterics...

Audio magazines seem to have dacs on their covers seemingly every month...Chord, MBL, Berkley Ref (the best DAC extant according to TAS. So why put more expensive DACs on the cover, if they are worse??? Fukk the audio fan culture is alive and well!), dCS, Brinkmann, Ayre, T+A, Esoteric, Meridian, Burmester, etc..

Which DAC brands are doing their best to fight obsolescence so the buyer isn't left empty-handed? Moore's law seems to be logarithmically accelerated for high end audio.

PS Audio (for those with a taste of DSD) seems like a good example. And at what point will they need to update their physical box? Same with Bricasti and TotalDac.

Any other brands, or are the buyers of expensive DACs screwed?

NorthStar · Dec 11, 2018

It's Christmas time; high end audiophiles are saving their money for tree ornaments and gifts to the grandchildren and the best and plenty of food and beverages.

You can buy DACs today for a fraction of a wine bottle and get 88.88% of the sound quality for your ears that can handle from 30Hz to 10kHz.

And besides, high end audio is not in DACs, it's in turntables and tonearms and cartridges.

DACs are for computer gamers with headphones.

microstrip · Dec 11, 2018

IMHO the only buyers of expensive DACs who have been screwed were those who ignored the rules of high-end audio, got poor products or did not spend time enough listening and enjoying their DACs to justify their expense.

There are many reasons that explain why the DACs of ten years ago had such an high depreciation - again IMHO mostly because at that time even the top digital sound quality was not good enough to justify its very high prices. Not the case today, when most top digital has sound quality on level with the top analog. The fast evolution ( and confusion ) of digital audio sources in the last five years also contributed.

BTW, the fastest rate of depreciation in this hobby is a broken stylus, not the DACs ...

microstrip · Dec 11, 2018

NorthStar said:
(...) And besides, high end audio is not in DACs, it's in turntables and tonearms and cartridges. (...)

Bob,

Did you manage to invent a time travel machine?

JackD201 · Dec 11, 2018

I believe there are many really good DACs that at least with 16/44 up to 24/96 that are surviving the test of time. Given the content available for HiRez remains small compared to the decades long market supremacy of 16/44, the issue has been the carrier and connectivity format not the digital file types themselves. Toslink and SPDIF with a smattering of AT&T to Firewire then USB to uPnP.

If we are to look at those that are attempting to be future proof, where to look is those with modularity. As stated PS does it as does CH. I believe MSB too. For those that want to keep their DACs usable today, there are many makers of after market converters.

I believed then as I believe now that much of a DAC's sound lies in the analog output stage. At least at line level, quality has been available for a long time in regards to this. It is old, tried and true. The challenge is trying to harness that quality when the interfaces have become all but obsolete.

Sablon Audio · Dec 11, 2018

I think it is fair to say that digital audio ages in dog years, with the technology evolving faster than other segments. Used values will be influenced by how the older product compares sonically with newer and cheaper models, so a older brand with both dealer and distributor sales margins inflating the price will suffer worse. What Caesar says about certain brands above does not come as a surprise.

Al M. · Dec 11, 2018

Sablon Audio said:
I think it is fair to say that digital audio ages in dog years, with the technology evolving faster than other segments.

One of the reasons why I am reluctant investing in an expensive uber DAC. Not that I actually need one, my Yggdrasil DAC is pretty awesome as it is. And yes, it's upgradable, and there is a current upgrade which, however, is low on my list of priorities. But it probably measures better

NorthStar · Dec 11, 2018

microstrip said:
Bob,

Did you manage to invent a time travel machine?

Around Christmas time I always go back in time.
Ten years from now I will remember this time right now with my reply to you.

And the DACs we buy today will become history. ...But the LP never; a long lasting solid piece of musical black circle still spinning in memory lane of the future, like a black hole where the only exit is to enter it.

microstrip · Dec 11, 2018

Sablon Audio said:
I think it is fair to say that digital audio ages in dog years, with the technology evolving faster than other segments. (...)

Currently I do not see any technological evolution in high-end DACs - on the contrary, we are more and more dependent on mysterious unexplained aspects, such as the R2R DACs, "magic" clocks that no one can explain why they sound better, custom data interfaces or fancy data cables. IMHO only a better understanding of the subjective aspects of digital audio related to stereo sound reproduction can help. Again IMHO, servers are just a good proof we have all the technology, but still can not control the results.

BTW, I am addressing the top high-end sector, not the whole area. I have followed the evolution of Devialet along its history. Obsolescence free digital, yes. But some people spent around 75% of its current cost in two big upgrades ...

BF38 · Dec 13, 2018

Hi all,
this is now more than 7 years I play with Totaldac from the very first level to, now, the one-box front end and why I chose them (margin of musicality) is even true today,... scalability, updates, speak directly with the designer, what a pleasure...and it's not over.

wisnon · Dec 13, 2018

Many Dacs are upgradable now. Hand crafted Lampi, TotalDac and Aries Cerat you can send back for revision. Lampi upgrade costs are not expensive. MSB has switchable modules (though not cheap). PS Audio Direct Stream has firmware upgrades regularly. Some of the Chinese Dacs are similar.

Basically the firmware upgradable ones, the modular constructed ones and the hand crafted ones are your best bet for keeping up with the times. At this point its mostly functionality and sonic flavour/refinement rather than true scientific advancement that is on offer.

asiufy · Dec 13, 2018

Good ol' Lampi bias again...

$1000 to upgrade a Renderer module from v1 to v2 is "not cheap", but shipping the whole DAC back to Poland is "not expensive". Got it.

asiufy · Dec 13, 2018

Aqua DACs are also upgradeable, though they must go back to Italy. Upgrades are in the $2000-$4000 range, depending on the DAC.

christoph · Dec 13, 2018

asiufy said:
Good ol' Lampi bias again...

$1000 to upgrade a Renderer module from v1 to v2 is "not cheap", but shipping the whole DAC back to Poland is "not expensive". Got it.

Just in case your eyesight is failing you, I copy Normans posting and highlight the brands he mentioned besides Lampi

Many Dacs are upgradable now. Hand crafted Lampi, TotalDac and Aries Cerat you can send back for revision. Lampi upgrade costs are not expensive. MSB has switchable modules (though not cheap). PS Audio Direct Stream has firmware upgrades regularly. Some of the Chinese Dacs are similar.

Also, what are other costs for Upgrades with MSB? I mean not a simple imput board but rather a newer DAC module?

asiufy · Dec 13, 2018

Now you read again, and see which brands he made a point of mentioning cheap/expensive value judgements.

wisnon · Dec 13, 2018

asiufy said:
Good ol' Lampi bias again...

$1000 to upgrade a Renderer module from v1 to v2 is "not cheap", but shipping the whole DAC back to Poland is "not expensive". Got it.

No its not.. Costs €200 as you get a RMS number and benefit from his Corporate courier rate.

I don't know of any V1 to V2 renderer update. I know you can load the V2 firmware (simply a stripped down Roon only version, no HQP) on a SD card yourself for free or send it to the US service guys for a fee.

I was told the RBCD module in the Select 2 is $5K and Power plant additions are $14K. I don't call these cheap. Sorry.

I didn't mention Aqua, as I am not familiar with their upgrade policy. All you had to do was chip in with that info, just like the OP asked for, instead of picking a fight.

wisnon · Dec 13, 2018

asiufy said:
Now you read again, and see which brands he made a point of mentioning cheap/expensive value judgements.

Who expects modules to be cheap from a $100K Dac though.
Sorry, but you as a MSB dealer will never win the cheapness crown and you should not expect to. This is after all the Wallet Bulge Forum. LoL
The guys dishing the big moolahs will pay no problem. My post was for the OP, whose pocket I don't know.

asiufy · Dec 13, 2018

I upgraded a few V1 Renderers to V2, including our own, of course. Retail is $1000. It's a hardware upgrade, not software. You get a new V2, and send your V1 back to MSB.

You don't have a single piece of information right on your post, so I shouldn't even attempt to correct the rest of it. Prices, wrong. No such thing as "RBCD module", and on and on. Fortunately, MSB products and pricing is clear for all to see, on their website, so don't take my word for it.

All you gotta do is stop posting wrong information. I'm just correcting you and your obvious bias. We get it you like Lampizator, but you don't need to spread wrong information, or demean folks who purchased the product you don't favor.

I'm glad to see Lukas has such an inexpensive rate to/from Poland. That's an extraordinary rate indeed. I will tell the Aqua guys to negotiate a better deal, as it was not nearly that cheap to send our DACs for upgrades to Italy, using Fedex!

Modules for that $100k DAC are between $1k and $2k. In the grand scheme of things, I consider that to be relatively inexpensive. If you don't, nothing I can do.

I just pointed out that while you thought shipping a whole DAC to Poland (and back) + whatever (unknown) upgrade costs was OK, a $1k upgrade on custom, pretty advanced network module/Renderer was "expensive". I just thought that was offensive, and frankly, a sign of bias.

KeithR · Dec 13, 2018

just a stir the pot post, nothing to look at here.

the same people who complain about digital ignore cartridge and tonearm inflation

wisnon · Dec 13, 2018

Alex, the obvious bias is yours. You are in the business, I am not.( So is to be expected that you like the stuff you sell). I like the stuff I like too, but its only a hobby for me.

The Renderer upgrade I referred to was for Lampi, not MSB. I did not mention MSB Renderer in my post, you got that wrong. I obviously thought you were referring to Lampi renderer (so I must have gotten that wrong). As I said MSB Sel2 prices are NOT expected to be cheap as a 100K Dac is NOT cheap. Of course there are cheaper ones in the line up. I was not at all bashing MSB (I quite like a Dac V a pal had and a couple pals told me good things about the Sel 2 --- Sel1 I heard and was not impressed, software upgrade was huge to version 2), but you seem so sensitive about it. MSB is a very capable company. However, I have indeed seen you say very disparaging things about Lampi online, which for an industry insider is not particularly cool.

I was told by 1 or 2 people that the RBCD filter upgrade modules was 5K, but as you said module info is public, so I invite anyone interested to find out. http://www.msbtechnology.com/dacs/select-pricing/
It seems that the selection has changed since 2016/7 or so when I used to follow Sel2 happenings. Mike L did speak a lot about the RBCD filter and later I heard about MQA module as well. Perhaps prices have been rationalized as these modules may be shared with the cheaper modules too? On quick glance it seems so.

Which DACs are upgradeable? Any brands fighting obsolescence?

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