My stereo was without Torus for many years. The circuits for the power amps are not dedicated from a subpanel. The speed and dynamics of my amps improved with the Torus unit's (This I am sure of...more instant current capacity). This may not be the case at my new country home (only two homes off the utility transformer). What I intend to do there is have dedicated 20 amp lines from a sub-panel and see how things sound. I can then try the torus boxes. If can confirm an improvement there, I can always switch out the sub-panel box for a wall mount Torus transformer.
you proved this to me when you visited. It was truly an eye opener.
Everything sounds perfect and just where it should be but that word sterile for me in my system came to be a loss of ambient sound which took away a sense of presence. Hence my interpretation of the word "sterile"
It is curious that as far as I remember you reported excellent results of people using solar inverters - that are just power regenerators. Unfortunately we could not get technical information of them.
What I reported was not excellent results but rather I stated that there were No adverse or untoward sonic effects when I converted to solar. IOW I could not tell any difference
What I reported was not excellent results but rather I stated that there were No adverse or untoward sonic effects when I converted to solar. IOW I could not tell any difference
IMHO they are better than excellent results - you are now being powered by the evil of power conditioning (a regenerator) and you do not see any adverse result!
Perhaps you are not aware of the real depth of what you are telling. David is telling that expensive specialized power conditiong transformers add sterility or roll off, but you seem to have found the ideal device. It is why I was interested in knowing about the inverters you use in your distributed system.
My stereo was without Torus for many years. The circuits for the power amps are not dedicated from a subpanel. The speed and dynamics of my amps improved with the Torus unit's (This I am sure of...more instant current capacity). This may not be the case at my new country home (only two homes off the utility transformer). What I intend to do there is have dedicated 20 amp lines from a sub-panel and see how things sound. I can then try the torus boxes. If can confirm an improvement there, I can always switch out the sub-panel box for a wall mount Torus transformer.
In your situation. This is exactly why I suggested. I dont suggest other people who already own the Torus to throw them away. And the reason I suggested was not about Torus's lack of dynamic like a few people jumped that way. The Torus in my system long ago was giving me excellent consistent dynamic and it saved me a few times from power fluctuations. I knew I didnt have to say anything and ddk would do the dirty job saying it...haha and he did. What were missing when I used power conditioner, expensive power cords (let me change the word from audiophile power cord ) or Torus were excatly the things that ddk and Steve said. Yes, it sounds like Steve and I have been brainwashed by ddk but we are not worshipping him. We are just being honest to what we hear. In my case, the very micro details, nuances, high extensions and ambient info were shaped off when using those products. The positives of those products usually lie in the surge in dynamic, refine and accentuate the mids, organize the sound better than without. But one of them(not all) was sterile and tookout the life of my system. I realized the power con taking the life of my system long before ddk came. And realized the loss of nuances etc. after ddk suggested me to take out all my Siltech power cords and replaced with freebies Ching Cheng's. So, there are pluses (if you consider them pluses) to use them, but also minuses imo. Now I am talking in general of power products not specifically about the Torus.
Anyway with your dedicated line at the new house I think you will have a more suitable setting and a better sound. With or without power products will be simple for you to decide. I am really looking forward to read about your possible system change.
I even made sure I wasn't hearing from my head not my ears by switching in and out a few more occasions after the preacher left my place. May be we have quite similar preferences in sound Steve. In other systems it could be different or the extent of minuses could be less to hear. Just anothet data point guys.
But it sure didnt take me and you the whole day to recognize a sunshine.
In my case transformer will be of adequate size, actually will be much more than that. What do you consider as sounding sterile if I may ask, as this is what applies in my situation?
In my case, sterile means loss of liquidity. I can easily hear because I am using all tubes. The sound image became extremely crisp, precise with extreme quiet background, but definitely lessliquid, loss of vividness, no pops and no sharp dynamic "contrast" of each instrument (meaning everything is homogenously dynamic) that constitute live sound. It just didnt work in my tube based system.
Anyway try demoing a Torus. It could work very well in your system and situation. A few of us who didnt have good experiences with power products just want to give a headup and let you know what could be missing so you know where you might want to pay attention to while auditioning.
Tang,
I feel your pain.I hate it when the "Cable Whisperer" comes and removes your expensive power cords and conditioners and replaces them with his Ching Cheng specials sans any conditioners. But damn, the man quickly sold me on the move back to "Chevy" when I gave up my "Lexus" cords. I've been trying without success for about 2 years to improve upon those cheapo Ching Chengs with a wide variety of PCs but for low level stuff, its a yeoman task for which I have yet to be successful, and believe me, I've tried. So beautifully balanced, so "natural" (yes, his favorite word) and just great instrument sonorities. I don't necessarily think they are the best out there for megawatt amps that move a lot of current, but that may surely be an exception. I'm currently exploring for that application. David's suggestion to remove my conditioner received a hearty shoulder shrug for about 6 months until I actually tried it for the first time in years. Damn, another improvement for free that could not be denied. Who doesn't like myth busting?
Marty
Steve, glad to hear that you head no difference once your solar system was installed. That is exactly the experience I had as well. Today’s solar technology is considerably more advanced than just a few years back...and the micro inverters that are now common, really do seem to isolate any noise that one could be concerned about.
BTW, Jeff Rowland and other well known amp manufacturers have been stating for years that running power amps from the wall is the way to go..and this always made perfect sense to me. Although this is assuming that a dedicated line with enough draw capability is part of that equation.
I can easily see this recommendation as being correct and valid, not so much with cheap lamp/zip cord cabling though!
Tang,
I feel your pain.I hate it when the "Cable Whisperer" comes and removes your expensive power cords and conditioners and replaces them with his Ching Cheng specials sans any conditioners. But damn, the man quickly sold me on the move back to "Chevy" when I gave up my "Lexus" cords. I've been trying without success for about 2 years to improve upon those cheapo Ching Chengs with a wide variety of PCs but for low level stuff, its a yeoman task for which I have yet to be successful, and believe me, I've tried. So beautifully balanced, so "natural" (yes, his favorite word) and just great instrument sonorities. I don't necessarily think they are the best out there for megawatt amps that move a lot of current, but that may surely be an exception. I'm currently exploring for that application. David's suggestion to remove my conditioner received a hearty shoulder shrug for about 6 months until I actually tried it for the first time in years. Damn, another improvement for free that could not be denied. Who doesn't like myth busting?
Marty
The more we speak the more we appear to be ddk's clansman . But heck, he hasnt been wrong about advices he gave to his friends at least to me. I am not 100% tweak-free though. I dont think he realized I still had a pair of kitten litter boxes attached to my speakers. Funny these boxes are the ones I thought made least effect and I was disappointed of their delta comparing to other boxes. But what they do is to put sound presentation in order, more organized and nothing more. You know the Ching Cheng can be a bit naughty in term of putting sound of each instruments in an orderly manner which sound a bit nicer when listening to orchestra. Yes I had to bite my lips hard and drank my blood to put aside silly expensive things I already bought. I just look at a positive side of it. I got this unbeatable sound from acoustic instruments and if I sell my tweaks I have money to do other things. What sunk is already sunk.
Very true, the only thing you see are measurements filtering out some "noise" without any correlation to anything but with all kinds of claims of black matter. In the meantime you're randomly backing up transformers, chokes, filters etc. with what's already built into the equipment.
What do you suggest in the case where one needs power distribution and additional dedicated circuits cannot be added? Any preferred multi-outlet product(s) that do not limit current?
Are efforts to treat noise put back onto the line by various components outweighed by the absence of filteration at various frequencies?
In my case, sterile means loss of liquidity. I can easily hear because I am using all tubes. The sound image became extremely crisp, precise with extreme quiet background, but definitely lessliquid, loss of vividness, no pops and no sharp dynamic "contrast" of each instrument (meaning everything is homogenously dynamic) that constitute live sound. It just didnt work in my tube based system.
Sounds like the difference between on one hand a commonly heard High-End sound that is resolved, extremely clean -- too clean and smooth, in fact --, polite, inoffensive and friendly, and on the other hand a system sound that comes closer to portraying the raw, untamed energy of live music.
What do you suggest in the case where one needs power distribution and additional dedicated circuits cannot be added? Any preferred multi-outlet product(s) that do not limit current?
You can use industrial power strips or make your own with something like a Hubbel Quad which is what I do. It comes in different colors and there's a 20 amp version. The breaker and your wiring is your current limitation not a 15A/20A receptacle.
There's controversy regarding audiophile filtration devices in every instance they had negative impact on the sound when I tried them. IME line noise is in the ground take care of that properly and lot of the issues are resolved, of course solutions are situation dependent and none that I've come across include cat litter boxes.
Steve, glad to hear that you head no difference once your solar system was installed. That is exactly the experience I had as well. Today’s solar technology is considerably more advanced than just a few years back...and the micro inverters that are now common, really do seem to isolate any noise that one could be concerned about. (...)
Although I appreciate your findings can you nominate the exact inverters and topology you are using or referring?
We all know that technology is more advanced and micro inverters are now common, but unless he have details its all coffee talk ... We have solar systems going from $100 to $100K!
(...) IME line noise is in the ground take care of that properly and lot of the issues are resolved, of course solutions are situation dependent and none that I've come across include cat litter boxes.
Of course this is a great general recommendation, but 99% of people can't change their grounding conditions, either because of location or existing electrical regulations.
And for those who can deal with it, there are too many ways of taking care of ground - unless we know what we should minimize for audio grounds, this advice is again too general.
We all know that technology is more advanced and micro inverters are now common, but unless he have details its all coffee talk ... We have solar systems going from $100 to $100K!
Details of what. You’re the one who’s making it coffee talk. You keep asking about information that is proprietary to the solar company. The reality is there was no sonic change.
What do you suggest in the case where one needs power distribution and additional dedicated circuits cannot be added? Any preferred multi-outlet product(s) that do not limit current?
Are efforts to treat noise put back onto the line by various components outweighed by the absence of filteration at various frequencies?
Unless you have kilowatt amplifiers running in class A or poor power connectors you will not experience any current limitation due to outlets. The impedance of the line will be orders of magnitude higher than the contact resistance of the outlet/connector. As they sound different, there must be a reason for sonic differences of power connecting devices, but we must find answers elsewhere. The usual hydraulic analogies of electricity do not apply in audio.
IMHO one key point in power devices is that they must absorb the noise generate by equipment before it reaches other equipment or gets reflected in the device. As such, rules are equipment dependent - and perhaps in such a way that only experience can give us some hints, particularly as there are no unique solutions.
Details of what. You’re the one who’s making it coffee talk. You keep asking about information that is proprietary to the solar company. The reality is there was no sonic change.
Please note I was asking David about his post, I know you have no details on it - I have no doubts on your opinion concerning your system.
IMHO staying in ignorance and worship does not seem to be one of the objectives of WBF. I am here to learn and share my points, some times bridging technology with others subjective experience. Although science has limitations explaining sound reproduction, the laws of electromagnetism must be obeyed.
