Are the $19,500 Berkeley and $35,000 dCS DACs really worth big bucks?

[microstrip]

It's funny, on one side we have Al M. and Bonzo saying that only direct, head to head comparisons are the way to get at which piece of gear sounds better and then we have you now saying that it is mostly useless and sometimes misleading. IMO, DACs are one of the most comparable pieces or gear in a system because there are usually minimal interface issues. Speakers and amps are much tougher to compare because of impedance and sensitivity matching issues. As long as a DAC is fed into a preamp then impedance is not an issue and the signal never transitions from electrical to mechanical or vice versa.

Yes, I openly disagree with them on this aspect. Electrical characteristics are not enough to explain or debate components matching - 99% of modern electronics are good matches. The impedance rules - there are a few versions, can you tell me what is yours? - exceptionaly explain a few cases of mismatch and admit as many exceptions.

It is not practical or really necessary to build up an optimal system around all pieces of gear on test in order to determine the character of a piece of gear. They all have unique signatures. This can be modified or ameliorated by other components in a system but usually not eliminated.

It is not practical, but IMHO it is the only fair way of carrying a proper review. Surely YMMV, as people say.

Using high quality recordings that one knows well (even better if you made them yourself as I have done in a few cases) is always important but this can also lead you into a blind alley so I like to also mix in ones I know pretty well but that I don't use regularly for reviewing.

Sorry to say, if you made it yourself it is not significant for test unless openly accessible to everyone - unless you were able to carry with high quality a challenging recording and have excellent recording practice and credentials. I enjoy Perter McGraph recordings, but every time some one comes with an amateur DAT recording I go for a coffee.

Knowing what are our reference recordings helps a lot in these subjects, it would be great if we add them and the why's in our "About" pages, that are easily accessible any time. But I have found people love talking with great detail about equipment in reviews and much less about the music reproduction - I recognize it is a much more demanding aspect concerning writing skills when some one wants to be detailed, most of the time I feel difficulty in expressing it.

So, what you are telling me about Vivaldi, SOUNDS like it has issues that have to be counterbalanced or it doesn't reach such a high level of performance...if that is not what you are saying then what do you mean by optimization of a system around Vivaldi. It sounds to me like the Metronome is far better choice for most people who will generally drop the new piece into an existing system. Are you telling met that the Metronome has more coloration overall but is somehow "more sympathetic" in its colorations or are you saying the Vivaldi reveals all the weaknesses in ones system and requires a rethink? Or are you telling me both those things? Try to be less cryptic.

I am not obssessed with DCS per se. They were; however, one of the focus DACs of the OP, so...

No, I am just reporting what happens in my (and a few other) systems. It is a question of subjective matching, but yes the Vivaldi often needs a rethink of some parts in the system. When you have too many good things you want to have them all , and high-end is always a compromise.

 

[morricab]

Yes, I openly disagree with them on this aspect. Electrical characteristics are not enough to explain or debate components matching - 99% of modern electronics are good matches. The impedance rules - there are a few versions, can you tell me what is yours? - exceptionaly explain a few cases of mismatch and admit as many exceptions.



It is not practical, but IMHO it is the only fair way of carrying a proper review. Surely YMMV, as people say.


Sorry to say, if you made it yourself it is not significant for test unless openly accessible to everyone - unless you were able to carry with high quality a challenging recording and have excellent recording practice and credentials. I enjoy Perter McGraph recordings, but every time some one comes with an amateur DAT recording I go for a coffee.

Knowing what are our reference recordings helps a lot in these subjects, it would be great if we add them and the why's in our "About" pages, that are easily accessible any time. But I have found people love talking with great detail about equipment in reviews and much less about the music reproduction - I recognize it is a much more demanding aspect concerning writing skills when some one wants to be detailed, most of the time I feel difficulty in expressing it.




No, I am just reporting what happens in my (and a few other) systems. It is a question of subjective matching, but yes the Vivaldi often needs a rethink of some parts in the system. When you have too many good things you want to have them all , and high-end is always a compromise.

I guess this would mean that no one has ever done a proper review based on your criteria...a bit too demanding I would say. I will say again that DACs are probably one of the easiest pieces of gear to just "drop" into a system. I don't see the possibility of building up a new system to optimize a new piece of gear everytime you change something. That way lies madness... However, amps, speakers, analog components need careful matching or you can easily get bad sound. DACs and preamps less so and they are easier to get at the root character from my own reviewing experience.

My own made recordings are supplemental but still vital because I was there so I know what the original sound was like (at least more so than any other recording where I was not at the session). It doesn't have to be of the highest quality (although mine are not bad at all I have to say) but something you can REFER to (thus reference) because you know the original sound and you know the recording much more intimately. Another piece to the puzzle i would say.

You can read my reviews, I am quite descriptive about the sound reproduction I hear. I don't talk a whole bunch about the design and concept of the equipment beyond a kind of perfunctory description. I delve into the sound. I also match levels (probably something that was quite different between the Vivaldi and the Metronome) rather tightly. A few db difference has a big effect on preference.

 

[morricab]

That seems an odd qualification and a pretty strange comment. If you have been reading my posts in this thread, it is pretty clear that I don't listen to digital in my system. I might also have an epiphany of sorts if I hear some super speaker or turntable (Magico M3, TechDAS AF1) but that does not mean I will buy it. It could simply mean that I can't afford it or that it is not appropriate for my room, or I don't like the looks of it. You should try to hear the Rossini or Vivaldi DAC in a familiar system. I was very surprised. You may be too.

I am sure I will hear one someday...probably after everyone has moved on to the new one that is SO much better than that "old" DCS stuff! By then it will be projecting a hologram in front of my eye implants...and so on.

Probably sticking with analog is better...I am a 70+% analog guy anyway...no SS anywhere in my system though...purged it a while ago. Then I tried to put some back in again...could keep it there though (Einstein hybrid and NAT hybrid) now back to full tube...

 

[morricab]

No, I didn't take personally what you call our "epiphany" and that you don't share in it since you cannot do so. After all you haven't yet heard the Rossini yourself. I was just coldly analyzing what you actually said vs. what you claimed that you said.

Perhaps in the future you could be a bit more careful with your statements. It might save you some trouble.



As Peter said. Also, if you would have cared to read the thread further, I was really lusting after the dCS Rossini at the time. However, my perspective on the high end has changed in the meantime, and currently I am not willing to spend that much money on a digital component anymore. Over the last three years I have gone on the cheap and factory direct with several purchases now, and successfully so. I am also not particularly in love with the luxury aspects of the chassis of the Rossini and what that inevitably adds to the price, but this is a personal thing. It does look cool, and I can fully understand others' owner's pride.

"Perhaps in the future you could be a bit more careful with your statements. It might save you some trouble."

Pot meet Kettle.

 

[Al M.]

"Perhaps in the future you could be a bit more careful with your statements. It might save you some trouble."

Pot meet Kettle.

 

[MadFloyd]

I wonder why the OP (and everyone else) hasn't mentioned the MSB Select II. It seems to be the new frontrunner in the DAC race.

 

[Al M.]

I wonder why the OP (and everyone else) hasn't mentioned the MSB Select II. It seems to be the new frontrunner in the DAC race.

Because RH lists the Berkeley Ref and the Vivaldi as the other two DACs that he finds the three best (he hasn't extensively heard the Select DAC yet but does mention it); the third being the Schiit Yggdrasil (the link in the OP goes to the Yggdrasil review).

You never know, but I do assume the Vivaldi will beat the Yggdrasil fair and square.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I wonder why the OP (and everyone else) hasn't mentioned the MSB Select II. It seems to be the new frontrunner in the DAC race.

please leave the Select II out of this....*****....

 

[PeterA]

I am sure I will hear one someday...probably after everyone has moved on to the new one that is SO much better than that "old" DCS stuff! By then it will be projecting a hologram in front of my eye implants...and so on.

Probably sticking with analog is better...I am a 70+% analog guy anyway...no SS anywhere in my system though...purged it a while ago. Then I tried to put some back in again...could keep it there though (Einstein hybrid and NAT hybrid) now back to full tube...

May I ask for which publication you do reviews and under what name? Could you provide a link to one of them to help me put your stated priorities into some context?

 

[PeterA]

please leave the Select II out of this....*****....

Mike, I can't think of a five letter word that would fit there. Seriously, your recent purchase seems to provide one perspective to the rather provocative OP. I see it more as a discussion between expensive and less expensive DACs and the issue of value rather than a comparison of subjective performance between DACs in the same price range.

 

[BMCG]

Indeed i am curious as to how the Vivaldi stack benchmarks in Mike's "Oasis" ....

just a prod...no obligation

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I can't think of a five letter word that would fit there.

which was the plan.....for the reader to consider what 'this' was.

Seriously, your recent purchase seems to provide one perspective to the rather provocative OP. I see it more as a discussion between expensive and less expensive DACs and the issue of value rather than a comparison of subjective performance between DACs in the same price range.

not sure I want to get into this discussion. I have recently personally purchased dacs from a number of price points, optimized and lived with them. and yes, I did vote with my checkbook as to what the right dac was for me and my particular system.....after not finding what I wanted elsewhere. my problem was hearing it at shows, having that as a reference, and not finding it anywhere else. I'd love for that to be acquired at a modest price if that was a choice.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Indeed i am curious as to how the Vivaldi stack benchmarks in Mike's "Oasis" ....

just a prod...no obligation

not heard of a Select II <-> full Vivaldi 'v2 upgraded' stack comparison. likely in Asia somewhere it has happened, but not that I've seen.

I guess I'd be open to someone bringing the Vivaldi over to compare, but it's nothing I would pursue personally. it would have to be reasonable logistically....as I'm not tearing my system apart to answer a question I'm not asking.

 

[asiufy]

I've been saying this all along, and of course, being a long time MSB fan (customer first, now a dealer), I'm biased and people just didn't want to believe it... But the SELECT II is really significantly beyond anything else out there. It's just not "good digital", it just delivers all, and you don't think it's digital or analog anymore. I honestly, really wanted the Aqua + SGM combo to be close, but it isn't...

But with the SELECT, you really have to provide the right environment for it to show its stuff, that's why you won't see many reviews or even show presences (other than MSB's own rooms). And Mike had just that perfect environment (and the will!) to extract the best out of it!

Now, I'm dead curious to get the MSB Reference here! At $40k, it's not pocket change, but if it gets anywhere close to the SELECT II, it'll still kill just about anything out there. What I heard in Munich and at the LA Show showed much promise!

cheers,
alex

 

[microstrip]

I guess this would mean that no one has ever done a proper review based on your criteria...a bit too demanding I would say. I will say again that DACs are probably one of the easiest pieces of gear to just "drop" into a system. I don't see the possibility of building up a new system to optimize a new piece of gear everytime you change something. That way lies madness... However, amps, speakers, analog components need careful matching or you can easily get bad sound. DACs and preamps less so and they are easier to get at the root character from my own reviewing experience.

My own made recordings are supplemental but still vital because I was there so I know what the original sound was like (at least more so than any other recording where I was not at the session). It doesn't have to be of the highest quality (although mine are not bad at all I have to say) but something you can REFER to (thus reference) because you know the original sound and you know the recording much more intimately. Another piece to the puzzle i would say.

You can read my reviews, I am quite descriptive about the sound reproduction I hear. I don't talk a whole bunch about the design and concept of the equipment beyond a kind of perfunctory description. I delve into the sound. I also match levels (probably something that was quite different between the Vivaldi and the Metronome) rather tightly. A few db difference has a big effect on preference.

No, fortunately a lot of people do it and optimize the system during the review. And as editors and manufacturers usually agree on the reviewer, they have an idea of the system that will be used to carry the review.

Level matching is sometimes needed, but should be used with care. Subjective levels are not the same as electrical levels and equipment should be reviewed at their best - and surely readers should be warned about it. It is one of the reasons why I fear direct swaps at exactly the same level, although my equipment is level calibrated to .2 dB and I take this information in consideration. But I listen to equipment mainly for my personal use, not to carry reviews. I have found that enjoy and learn more from WBF members experiences - including yours - than from most reviews.

 

[j.phelan]

The Schiit is already tweakist..

..as Robert Harley states in his review in TAS. This means it won't improve with upgrades, unless someone can show it, not just say it on the internet. (Like doing a before-and-after, at an audio show, etc.)

Also not helping are upsamplers (like HQ player). These only help when needed (like, with delta-sigma DACs). But they honestly don't improve the sound of a great R2R DAC. I've tried it !!

 

[amirm]

Fangs back on.

Heck Amir, I have two SS DACs at home as we speak and had others + SS cd players in the past...it is not like I was born with a silver tube in my mouth ;-). In small doses they are even somewhat enjoyable (One I have Lampizated...big improvement...particularly in loss of a bit of "edge" that was present on nearly all recordings and therefore unlikely to be the recordings). Both use one of the smoothest best sounding DAC modules ever made (Ultra Analog D20400) but never try to tell me a transitor output stage is uncolored...they are.

That's simply not true. 99% of the DACs in use are solid state and I don't see their owners crying that they can only listen to them in short intervals. And as I said, almost all production of music is done with solid state. So if your assessment is true, it is yours and yours alone.

Fortunately we can easily show that your assessment is not what you say either. All we have to do is remove the knowledge of what you are listening to and all of your observations about sound of solid state and tube will disappear. If your observations are that fleeting, then what is their value again?

I used to have the Monarchy Audio M22B SE DAC, which was all SS and used the magnificent BB PCM63K chips...just like the M24 tube version I use now. It was, and still is a very good all SS PCM only DAC as it was one of the few that did the IV conversion correctly (with a 2500V/usec transimpedance amp). As good as that DAC is/was, the M24 is better in every way. It is also not a "tubey" colored sound DAC because it is not slapping a buffer at the end of an op amp like nearly every other "tube" DAC. Not all tube products produce a "tubey" sound...just like not all transistor products make an "edgy" sound. Long term listening tells a clear story.

Unfortunately this is more improper audio evaluations leading to faulty conclusions. Please come back when you do your long term listening without knowing what is being played and then we can talk. Until then, you have formed prejudices that you now overlay on sounds you hear. And your brain equates that with reality with ease. You are simply showing what is wrong with improper evaluation of audio when you let extraneous factors enter the equation than just the sound going into your ears. How else your subjective reports could be so different than 99% of the world out there to say nothing of objective evaluation of audio?

 

[Al M.]

That's simply not true. 99% of the DACs in use are solid state and I don't see their owners crying that they can only listen to them in short intervals. And as I said, almost all production of music is done with solid state. So if your assessment is true, it is yours and yours alone.

Yup, when time allows I can listen for many hours to my SS DAC without any fatigue, and with much enduring excitement (sometimes I even have a hard time taking a break for food, yet have no other choice when my stomach cries out). Well, at some point I get physically tired and need to go to bed...

How else your subjective reports could be so different than 99% of the world out there

Good question.

 

[Ric Schultz]

..as Robert Harley states in his review in TAS. This means it won't improve with upgrades, unless someone can show it, not just say it on the internet. (Like doing a before-and-after, at an audio show, etc.)

Also not helping are upsamplers (like HQ player). These only help when needed (like, with delta-sigma DACs). But they honestly don't improve the sound of a great R2R DAC. I've tried it !!

Anything can be improved and tweaked.....anything. If you mod an MSB Select and say it is better, I would believe you. Why would you lie. You don't need to hear it at a show.....just in your own home.

Check out post #2 for info on Yggy modded and versus a (stock and modded) LKS DAC running 16/44.....in this case a Delta Sigma is better. The Yggy is not a great R2R DAC. There are much, much better R2R DACs that would be better than LKS.....but for a lot more money.

 

[morricab]

May I ask for which publication you do reviews and under what name? Could you provide a link to one of them to help me put your stated priorities into some context?

I review for Positive Feedback. I started reviewing in 2002 or so and then took a break after 2006 until last year. You can see my recent reviews and Munich 2016 show report. Recently, I reviewed the Wall Audio Opus 88 preamp and the Ayon Vulcan Evo monoblocks and am working on a KR Audio preamp review. In the past, my best set of reviews were my preamp reviews (three part series with multiple preamps at various price levels from a few hundred bucks to over $25K). The review I did on Piega C2 ltd. speakers was also quite good I think. I review under my name.