Ron’s New System

[Mike Lavigne]

Ron; when are you going to just stop messing around and buy a Wavac. it's just a higher level version of all these others. a tube amp with balls, a big sound, tonal weight and no edge or etch.

unfortunately hard to get one to demo. and not cheap or a great deal. but probably a keeper.

either one of the 805's or one of the 833's. until you do you will be on the hunt.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Ron; when are you going to just stop messing around and buy a Wavac. it's just a higher level version of all these others. a tube amp with balls, a big sound, tonal weight and no edge or etch.

unfortunately hard to get one to demo. and not cheap or a great deal. but probably a keeper.

either one of the 805's or one of the 833's. until you do you will be on the hunt.

With all due respect, I highly doubt that the Wavac amps, no matter the models, are on a "higher" level than these PFF 100, even with the stock 845 tubes, and especially with Ron's current speakers. Different sounding, may be, but on a "higher" level?! Have you personally compared these PFF 100 to which Wavac amp directly and if so, with what speakers & preamps? Please share your experience...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron; when are you going to just stop messing around and buy a Wavac. it's just a higher level version of all these others. a tube amp with balls, a big sound, tonal weight and no edge or etch.

unfortunately hard to get one to demo. and not cheap or a great deal. but probably a keeper.

either one of the 805's or one of the 833's. until you do you will be on the hunt.

I went down the road of looking into the Wavac. I'm not sure anybody's awake at the switch there. I also considered a used Wavac up in Ventura County. I also had a very nice interaction with the Wavac distributor in Istanbul.

I'm pretty sure Wavac capacitors and transformers and tubes need to break in too. (I suspect that even Wavac amps put their tubes on one leg at a time.)

I'm not sure why you're pessimistic. I'm pretty excited about these amps.

And I truly don't believe in maximum expenditure. I do have a sound quality per dollar notion.

Finally, maybe I will try Wavac someday. This and the Wavac are the two amplifiers on my "alternative fantasy amp" list.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I went down the road of looking into the Wavac. I'm not sure anybody's awake at the switch there. I also considered a used Wavac up in Ventura County. I also had a very nice interaction with the Wavac distributor in Istanbul.

from what i understand Wavac is a one man show. one must pursue them. does not fit with most buyers. they are semi unobtainium.

I'm pretty sure Wavac capacitors and transformers and tubes need to break in too. (I suspect that even Wavac amps put their tubes on one leg at a time.)

I'm not sure why you're pessimistic.

i'm not pessimistic. i (and Brad and Rex) asked you yesterday the context of these amps. you ignored all of us. i figured if i went on the attack you might respond.

it worked.

I'm pretty excited about these amps.

best wishes that they are the 'ones'.

And I truly don't believe in maximum expenditure. I do have a sound quality per dollar notion.

can't argue with that.

Finally, maybe I will try Wavac someday. This and the Wavac are the two amplifiers on my "alternative fantasy amp" list.

i know. which is why i brought them up. it's the end of the road YOU are on.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

With all due respect, I highly doubt that the Wavac amps, no matter the models, are on a "higher" level than these PFF 100, even with the stock 845 tubes, and especially with Ron's current speakers. Different sounding, may be, but on a "higher" level?! Have you personally compared these PFF 100 to which Wavac amp directly and if so, with what speakers & preamps? Please share your experience...

never heard the Mastersound PFF 100 or even heard of the brand before. heard the Wavac's a few times and with my sense of Ron's expectations seems like a great fit. and an amp Ron has mentioned before.

i asked Ron yesterday about these amps but he ignored me. so i pushed harder to get a response. meant no disrespect to the Mastersound.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Mastersound always confuses me with their bias settings. They use a fixed bias with variable bias. Cathode resistor and negative grid voltage.
That's why every Mastersound amp has the same bias voltage of 15 volts on the test sockets, regardless of whether a 300b, 845, etc. is used. Here are instructions on how to do it if you want to change the tubes.

Tube exchange with Mastersound 300B-SE

Pf 100
300b amp

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Mastersound always confuses me with their bias settings. They use a fixed bias with variable bias. Cathode resistor and negative grid voltage.
That's why every Mastersound amp has the same bias voltage of 15 volts on the test sockets, regardless of whether a 300b, 845, etc. is used. Here are instructions on how to do it if you want to change the tubes.

Tube exchange with Mastersound 300B-SE

Pf 100View attachment 148634
300b amp
View attachment 148635

The instructions you ve provided says 20V, so this is NOT for the PFF 100. Also the instruction manual that comes with amplifiers has bias setting sheet for the proper model.... The amplifier shown on your pictures with 300B is an integrated model, and not NOT a monoblock, like the PFF-100. So you are just confusing folks.

 

[bonzo75]

never heard the Mastersound PFF 100 o

Mastersound lower wattage amps makes it a low priced high value brand (e.g. you can get their 300b integrated for 2 to 3k euro used and sounds good). MS, viva and new audio frontiers are from Italy, the latter two are more expensive, but mostly operate in lower wattage range. This PF 100 is relatively unknown as it is a relatively higher powered premium amp by master sound introduced a few years ago on this forum by Audiolibertarian. There is not much to go online by apart from his endorsement, and well, given that Clarisys are likely underpowered we still won’t have enough data points. Maybe Ron can release some videos to demonstrate it is powering it correctly

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Mastersound lower wattage amps are low priced high value brands (e.g. you can get their 300b integrated for 2 to 3k euro used and sounds good). MS, viva and new audio frontiers are from Italy, the latter two are more expensive, but mostly operate in lower wattage range. This PF 100 is relatively unknown as it is a relatively higher powered premium amp by master sound introduced a few years ago on this forum by Audiolibertarian. There is not much to go online by apart from his endorsement, and well, given that Clarisys are likely underpowered we still won’t have enough data points. Maybe Ron can release some videos to demonstrate it is powering it correctly

I believe the first iteration of the PFF-100 appeared in 2004, or so. I first tried those on a loan from my dealer in 2008. The Mastersound company had built OEM amps for KR and I believe for the Ayon at some point, and I think supplied its transformers for the New Audio Frontiers amps, a version of which with 845 tubes, I have also tested in my system. Despite those being lower wattage amps, sounded much more powerful than their wattage would suggest, and were also indeed amazing sounding, but very hot running for my NYC apartment. Vivas I ve tried the Aurora, also quite superb.

 

[bonzo75]

I believe the first iteration of the PFF-100 appeared in 2004, or so. I first tried those on a loan from my dealer in 2008. The Mastersound company had built OEM amps for KR and I believe for the Ayon at some point, and I think supplied its transformers for the New Audio Frontiers amps, a version of which with 845 tubes, I have also tested in my system. Despite those being lower wattage amps, sounded much more powerful than their wattage would suggest, and were also indeed amazing sounding, but very hot running for my NYC apartment. Vivas I ve tried the Aurora, also quite superb.

What were the speakers you used

 

[AudioLibertarian]

What were the speakers you used

Initially Acoustat Spectra 1100 hybrid, and Ensemble PA-1, and Primadonna, then few years later Chario Sovran, and Eminent Technology ET-6s (brutal load, 80-81 sensitivity), Nestorovic 5AS.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

Price wise the Mastersound sadly are now have gotten as expensive as New Audio Frontier and Viva. Before the Covid madness they were indeed much more accessible for the state of the art sound that imho they provided, . With old distributor 30-35K. Now MSRP in the USA is jacked up to 50K.
I have to also add, that the PFF-100s are by a magnitude, or two, "better" than other MS 845 tube models, despite those other models being superb as well.

 

[morricab]

I went down the road of looking into the Wavac. I'm not sure anybody's awake at the switch there. I also considered a used Wavac up in Ventura County. I also had a very nice interaction with the Wavac distributor in Istanbul.

I'm pretty sure Wavac capacitors and transformers and tubes need to break in too. (I suspect that even Wavac amps put their tubes on one leg at a time.)

I'm not sure why you're pessimistic. I'm pretty excited about these amps.

And I truly don't believe in maximum expenditure. I do have a sound quality per dollar notion.

Finally, maybe I will try Wavac someday. This and the Wavac are the two amplifiers on my "alternative fantasy amp" list.

Do yourself a favor and mate the IncitoS with a pair of Concero 65s or Essentias (like the guy I posted in Thundersnow’s thread).

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have to also add, that the PFF-100s are by a magnitude, or two, "better" than other MS 845 tube models, despite those other models being superb as well.

Why would this be?

1) I assume PF100 is substantially the same as 845 Mono but with twice the number of output tubes.

2) Normally fewer output devices results in better sound -- at least more purity, transparency. It is the cost one pays for a higher output.

Why would 4 x 845 sound better than 2 x 845?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Do yourself a favor and mate the IncitoS with a pair of Concero 65s or Essentias (like the guy I posted in Thundersnow’s thread).

The Conceros would be the candidate. Yes, it would be fun and fascinating to try them. But I just cannot get comfortable at the 65 watt power level. At that point I would simply get Absolare SET

Why Concero 65 over Wavac 833? In my decision tree, I would try Wavac 833 before any 65 watt anything.

Besides I am a Audio Globalist!* One piece from every country! I already have a nice boy from Cyprus!

*just kidding

 

[microstrip]

But I just cannot get comfortable at the 65 watt power level. (...)

Unfortunately with the type of amplifiers you are addressing the rated power in watts supplied by the manufacturer can be meaningless.

Unless you have access to complete measurements, such as those supplied by Stereophile in reviews, you risk outclassing many good candidates.

When I owned the Marantz project T1 - push pull 845, UTC transformers, all interstate coupled - I found it much more subjectively powerful than other 80W amplifiers.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The instructions you ve provided says 20V, so this is NOT for the PFF 100. Also the instruction manual that comes with amplifiers has bias setting sheet for the proper model.... The amplifier shown on your pictures with 300B is an integrated model, and not NOT a monoblock, like the PFF-100. So you are just confusing folks.
View attachment 148636

I was just using the bias setting as an example. They used a more powerful 300B (XLS), which can deliver more output power, so 20 volts is usually 15 volts. It's fine, you didn't understand why I did that. I don't know of any other company with such a bias setting. I'll leave the topic.

 

[morricab]

The Conceros would be the candidate. Yes, it would be fun and fascinating to try them. But I just cannot get comfortable at the 65 watt power level. At that point I would simply get Absolare SET

Why Concero 65 over Wavac 833? In my decision tree, I would try Wavac 833 before any 65 watt anything.

Besides I am a Audio Globalist!* One piece from every country! I already have a nice boy from Cyprus!

*just kidding

The Conceros sound as if there is a Plutonium nuclear reactor for a power supply. They sound more powerful than any other SET I have heard (except the even higher models from Stavros) and will drive speakers like you won't believe because of the very low impedance power supply delivering huge current at lightning speed. The transformer coupled driver is a big part of the dynamics equation...all transformer coupled amps I have heard simply sound more robust than standard cap or even direct coupling. Also, the output transformers are MUCH bigger than the ones in the Master sound but with special winding techniques that get them to well over 50Khz. So, the foundation of the sound is something you have never heard before with other amps...SET or otherwise. The PF100s are only 50Kg per monoblock and the Conceros are 90KG. A lot of that difference is the output transformer weight, where the Conceros is around 20Kg...

Forget what you think you know about power. The videos I posted on Thundersnows thread were with monos that make 40 watts...it sounds very powerful and effortless.

 

[morricab]

 

[morricab]