Thorens & Goldmund Reference Turntables - European Expressions of the Art of Beyond

Audiocrack

Active Member
Aug 10, 2012
1,902
0
36
#21
I removed the three stone legs and (indeed) placed the Jem turntable on a wooden rack that is supported by Halcyonics Micro 40 devices. In all honesty - and although I liked their looks - I was never a real fan of the three stone legs from a sound perspective.
 

Ron Resnick

Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
5,044
24
38
Beverly Hills, CA
#22
Dear David, Have you ever heard the Goldmund Reference 2?
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,439
3
38
Utah
#23
Dear David, Have you ever heard the Goldmund Reference 2?
Hi Ron,

No, it was never really on my radar, didn't find anything interesting about it and I'm not sure if its being made anymore.

david
 

Ron Resnick

Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
5,044
24
38
Beverly Hills, CA
#24
Thank you. I do not see it on the Goldmund website.
 
Dec 20, 2014
181
0
16
FRANCE
#25
I think it is only made on order. Heard about 300 000€ but not sure. I'm curious to know who was / is the maker for them ?
 

anders

New Member
Sep 9, 2015
39
0
0
Connecticut
#26
There was a problem in power supply/controller of the early versions which they fixed in the later generation like mine, I never had a problem with it. I'm spoilt by the flexibility and ease of setup of the SME arms, its really a one, two, three and you're done, I also know them well enough to know when my setup isn't optimal. I only setup the Goldmund arm once when I got the table and left it for years playing without a hitch until we moved. I have to pull out the manuals and relearn it again, just haven't had the patience for it. Also I'd like to try other cartridges on it to see how they work out but, so its just been waiting for me to get motivated.

Used Goldmunds are very undervalued these days but I see the Thorens tables just keep going up...

david

Hi David

I've been enjoying your posts and see you have many SME 30xx tonearms. I (imagine with others?) would enjoy your write up on them, especially on setup as you say 1, 2, 3. Or what you think on after market headshells and such. My cartridge is Lyra Parnassus. I am using stock headshell now and find SME system a bit tricky with sliding entire tonearm back and forth to get precise alignment, it is quite different from normal headshell that allows cartridge to be moved in all directions in the slots.

-Anders
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,439
3
38
Utah
#27
Hi David

I've been enjoying your posts and see you have many SME 30xx tonearms. I (imagine with others?) would enjoy your write up on them, especially on setup as you say 1, 2, 3. Or what you think on after market headshells and such. My cartridge is Lyra Parnassus. I am using stock headshell now and find SME system a bit tricky with sliding entire tonearm back and forth to get precise alignment, it is quite different from normal headshell that allows cartridge to be moved in all directions in the slots.

-Anders
Hi Anders,

Glad you're enjoying the series! I have one more to table to do as soon as I get the time, hopefully over this weekend or early next week and I'll include the SME setup at the same time. Actually setting up the cartridge is simpler with a fixed head shell than a slotted one. Both Audio Technica & Ortofon make some excellent inexpensive headshells. The included SME protractor is tough to use, you're better off buying something like the one from DB Systems sold online, its the one that I use too. You should be able to easily find the exact tracking angle with it.

http://www.needledoctor.com/DB-Systems-Protractor

here's an old but still valid review of it.

http://www.dbsystemsaudio.com/DBP-10.jpg

david
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,439
3
38
Utah
#29
Both are amazing tables, but I think I prefer the Goldmund.
I have seen the Thorens and it really looks like the father of analog.
Analog was already a mature technology when they made these tables, both sound wonderful but for ergonomics the Thorens wins, the Goldmund and its arm are a bitch to setup properly.

david
 

anders

New Member
Sep 9, 2015
39
0
0
Connecticut
#30
Hi Anders,

Glad you're enjoying the series! I have one more to table to do as soon as I get the time, hopefully over this weekend or early next week and I'll include the SME setup at the same time. Actually setting up the cartridge is simpler with a fixed head shell than a slotted one. Both Audio Technica & Ortofon make some excellent inexpensive headshells. The included SME protractor is tough to use, you're better off buying something like the one from DB Systems sold online, its the one that I use too. You should be able to easily find the exact tracking angle with it.

http://www.needledoctor.com/DB-Systems-Protractor

here's an old but still valid review of it.

http://www.dbsystemsaudio.com/DBP-10.jpg

david
Great, looking forward to it!
 

Detlof

Member Sponsor
Nov 5, 2015
307
0
0
#32
I have had a Goldmund Ref for well over 30 years now. At the time when I bought it, it seemed a breakthrough to new shores of listening pleasure. But soon the linear arm started mistracking, made rumbling noises when the servo set in. Also the table was not quiet. So together with friends we redesigned the arm completely, put in new rails, silenced the driving mechanism and by adding another motor with new electronics could now change VTA on the fly from the listening position while the record was playing.
No more fiddling with those flimsy screws which always were a bitch to allign properly to get VTA right. We also reworked, shaft, bearing, bottom plate all to much closer tolerances und put heating in to keep the oil at even temperature.
It was a long labour of love, but to this day the TT sings.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,439
3
38
Utah
#33
I have had a Goldmund Ref for well over 30 years now. At the time when I bought it, it seemed a breakthrough to new shores of listening pleasure. But soon the linear arm started mistracking, made rumbling noises when the servo set in. Also the table was not quiet. So together with friends we redesigned the arm completely, put in new rails, silenced the driving mechanism and by adding another motor with new electronics could now change VTA on the fly from the listening position while the record was playing.
No more fiddling with those flimsy screws which always were a bitch to allign properly to get VTA right. We also reworked, shaft, bearing, bottom plate all to much closer tolerances und put heating in to keep the oil at even temperature.
It was a long labour of love, but to this day the TT sings.
The arm had problems when introduced but they addressed most of them in the final iterations including the updated controller but its still a bear to setup! It looks like you had the will and the ability to make major improvements on the design, would love to get more details and see some pictures. I solved the oil problem using a very low viscosity type used for aircraft instrumentation, the original would harden up at lower temperatures but not a big problem where I lived. Yes, the Reference still sings...

david
 

Detlof

Member Sponsor
Nov 5, 2015
307
0
0
#34
The arm had problems when introduced but they addressed most of them in the final iterations including the updated controller but its still a bear to setup! It looks like you had the will and the ability to make major improvements on the design, would love to get more details and see some pictures. I solved the oil problem using a very low viscosity type used for aircraft instrumentation, the original would harden up at lower temperatures but not a big problem where I lived. Yes, the Reference still sings...

david
Yes, I was lucky a the time to have friends at the physics lab of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, where I lived a the time. I myself am a technical dumbo. As yu can see from the picture, the design was elegant and simple.

IMG_0191.JPG
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,439
3
38
Utah
#35
Yes, I was lucky a the time to have friends at the physics lab of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich, where I lived a the time. I myself am a technical dumbo. As yu can see from the picture, the design was elegant and simple.

View attachment 23143
Very nice Detlof, I see that you got rid of the stepped belt too, thanks for sharing.

david
 

morricab

Active Member
Apr 25, 2014
2,279
0
36
Switzerland
#36
I thought Thorens was a swiss company as well back then. I think they were later bought by a german who resurrected the brand...but I could be wrong.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,439
3
38
Utah
#37
I thought Thorens was a swiss company as well back then. I think they were later bought by a german who resurrected the brand...but I could be wrong.
They began as a Swiss company but moved to Germany and opened a new company in mid 1960's. Aside from owning the brand name the current Thorens has nothing to do with the original company and their products.

david
 

jdza

Member
May 3, 2010
191
0
16
#38
They began as a Swiss company but moved to Germany and opened a new company in mid 1960's. Aside from owning the brand name the current Thorens has nothing to do with the original company and their products.

david
Thorens belonged to Franz, the manufacturer of EMT turntables from 1966 to the early 2000s. Both EMT and Thorens were located in Lahr in the German Black Forest. It was under EMT ownership that the TD125,TD 150,TD126, TD160 ,Prestige and Reference turntables were developed. Some parts were shared (motorised armlifts,strobe lights etc.)and some EMT tts were modified as Thorens (TD524) and some Thorens tables made into EMTs (928).

Thorens reverted to Swiss ownership in 2002 when it fell foul of German bankruptcy laws.