The Ugly American

[PeterA]

Ked, you have to take into account the source of the article you cite. Vox is a very liberal/left leaning publication that loves to make many episodes like this one a case of identity politics and obvious racism. In fact, the referee Carlos Ramos is a known stickler for rules and has ruled harshly on a wide number of other tennis players in major tournaments. A more balanced assessment can be found here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...s-serena-williams-penalty-us-open/1263930002/

(BTW, USA Today is hardly known for being a conservative publication!)

What impressed me the most about Serena, who not only that she admitted she acted somewhat inappropriately with the ref, but her absolute class when she quieted the crowd so Osaka could receive her award to cheers rather than boos. That, and the fact she was playing for a major championship 6 months after having a baby!

Great post Marty. The latest update is that umpires are considering boycotting future Serena Williams tennis matches. I think this is unprecedented and says a lot if they are even considering this bold move.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rena-williams-matches/?utm_term=.6f05e9e8cd07

 

[DaveyF]

I’m glad that neither my wife nor I has the slightest interest in watching sweaty people run around chasing a ball.

LOL.

Back to Serena. I think she was very correct and right to try and push the spotlight onto Osaka at the awards ceremony. Osaka definitely had the edge that day...and fully deserved the win.
Interestingly, to show how the organizers value certain aspects of the sport...over others, they decided to forego the awards ceremony for the winners of the women's doubles...and get on with the final of the mens singles. I don't think that sat too well with the winners of the women doubles....

 

[DaveyF]

Great post Marty. The latest update is that umpires are considering boycotting future Serena Williams tennis matches. I think this is unprecedented and says a lot if they are even considering this bold move.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rena-williams-matches/?utm_term=.6f05e9e8cd07

Not wise in my opinion.

 

[Al M.]

Ked, you have to take into account the source of the article you cite. Vox is a very liberal/left leaning publication that loves to make many episodes like this one a case of identity politics and obvious racism. In fact, the referee Carlos Ramos is a known stickler for rules and has ruled harshly on a wide number of other tennis players in major tournaments. A more balanced assessment can be found here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...s-serena-williams-penalty-us-open/1263930002/

(BTW, USA Today is hardly known for being a conservative publication!)

What impressed me the most about Serena, who not only that she admitted she acted somewhat inappropriately with the ref, but her absolute class when she quieted the crowd so Osaka could receive her award to cheers rather than boos. That, and the fact she was playing for a major championship 6 months after having a baby!

I've read the USA Today article, thanks for posting. It is correct when you just look at the dry facts.

Yet I think a key to the whole issue is this:

<<The head of the United States Tennis Association (USTA), which organises the US Open, said men "are badgering the umpire on the changeovers and nothing happens".

"We watch the guys do this all the time," USTA chief Katrina Adams said.

"There's no equality when it comes to what the men are doing to the chair umpires and what the women are doing, and I think there has to be some consistency across the board.

"I'm all about gender equality and I think when you look at that situation these are conversations that will be imposed in the next weeks. We have to treat each other fairly and the same." >> (End quote.)

From: https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45468290

So if even the USTA chief agrees that something is wrong here, then something is wrong.

This was considered in the Vox article, in the USA Today article it was not. The Vox article just gives a far more complete picture, so it is this article that is more balanced.

The head of the USTA has said there must be consistency, and I think that's right. Serena should not get away with bad behavior -- but then, nobody should.

***

Thanks, Marty, for pointing out Serena's class in quieting down the crowd for Osaka when it came to receiving her award.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks for that balanced post, Marty

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks for that balanced post, Marty

+1

 

[NorthStar]

They should ban coaches coaching their players...number one, all of them.
Two, a player who gets a bad temper should always get penalized right away, no waiting period.

Three, I'm glad this thread is reopened because tennis is a great sport.
_____

"Apply the rules in a positive manner, ban and fine all the tennis coaches cut coaching. They could hire couple people with video cameras and apply the rules for all. By doing what they're doing right now they ask for trouble, like we just saw.

So in a way the US Tennis Association is responsible for all that mess.
They screwed up that rule big time. Revisit the books (ruling books) and improve accordingly.

Serena and Naomi are the victims, we all are. The true culprit is the US Tennis Association...without a single drop of doubt. This rule is completely flawed. ...The World Tennis Association."

 

[PeterA]

I've read the USA Today article, thanks for posting. It is correct when you just look at the dry facts.

Yet I think a key to the whole issue is this:

<<The head of the United States Tennis Association (USTA), which organises the US Open, said men "are badgering the umpire on the changeovers and nothing happens".

"We watch the guys do this all the time," USTA chief Katrina Adams said.

"There's no equality when it comes to what the men are doing to the chair umpires and what the women are doing, and I think there has to be some consistency across the board.

"I'm all about gender equality and I think when you look at that situation these are conversations that will be imposed in the next weeks. We have to treat each other fairly and the same." >> (End quote.)

From: https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/45468290

So if even the USTA chief agrees that something is wrong here, then something is wrong.

This was considered in the Vox article, in the USA Today article it was not. The Vox article just gives a far more complete picture, so it is this article that is more balanced.

The head of the USTA has said there must be consistency, and I think that's right. Serena should not get away with bad behavior -- but then, nobody should.

***

Thanks, Marty, for pointing out Serena's class in quieting down the crowd for Osaka when it came to receiving her award.

Al, aren't umpires supposed to look at the dry (hard) facts? That is what cameras do. That is what the serve clock is for. I agree the USA Today article brings some balance to the conversation. I found it quite interesting, according to the article, that men are warned twice as often as the woman, at least in the previous few Grand Slam tournaments. And that coaching represents the single most often enforced violation of the rules. Those are interesting facts left out of the VOX article and they seem to weaken Serena's argument. And those facts don't fit the media's narrative.

I agree with your last two sentences. There should be consistency in the way the game is judged by umpires. So, they should focus on improving the men's behavior on court and not excusing Serena's bad behavior justs because the men have been getting away with it. It seems like we agree on this.

Does Adam's comment, "I'm all about gender equality and I think when you look at that situation these are conversations that will be imposed in the next weeks. We have to treat each other fairly and the same." mean that the woman will soon be playing best of 5 sets for all Grand Slam tournaments just like the men do? They get paid the same. Perhaps they should play the same number of sets. This seems to be a major inequity in the game based on gender. What will Katrina Adams say about that, if anyone dares to ask her.

 

[Al M.]

Al, aren't umpires supposed to look at the dry (hard) facts? That is what cameras do. That is what the serve clock is for. I agree the USA Today article brings some balance to the conversation. I found it quite interesting, according to the article, that men are warned twice as often as the woman, at least in the previous few Grand Slam tournaments. And that coaching represents the single most often enforced violation of the rules. Those are interesting facts left out of the VOX article and they seem to weaken Serena's argument. And those facts don't fit the media's narrative.

Fair point. Yet this alone doesn't make the USA Today article more balanced than the VOX article which, again, overall provides a much more complete picture of what is going on.

I agree with your last two sentences. There should be consistency in the way the game is judged by umpires. So, they should focus on improving the men's behavior on court and not excusing Serena's bad behavior justs because the men have been getting away with it. It seems like we agree on this.

Yes, Peter, we agree on this! Consistency, and raising everyone's standards of behavior.

Does Adam's comment, "I'm all about gender equality and I think when you look at that situation these are conversations that will be imposed in the next weeks. We have to treat each other fairly and the same." mean that the woman will soon be playing best of 5 sets for all Grand Slam tournaments just like the men do? They get paid the same. Perhaps they should play the same number of sets. This seems to be a major inequity in the game based on gender. What will Katrina Adams say about that, if anyone dares to ask her.

Good question. I would not be against such equality.

 

[NorthStar]

Men an women are all equal, no doubt. That coaching rule should be abolished once and for all, or executed by the books each and every time for both competitors, males and females...no distinction of their sex. The WTA needs to also revisit their clothing rules.

Wow, are we passionate or not about tennis! Sure we are. Tennis for me is like golf, and both tennis and golf are class act sports, where good manners are part of the game, any sports.
But tennis and golf have that extra higher class, like in audio. :b

 

[dminches]

They should ban coaches coaching their players...number one, all of them.
Two, a player who gets a bad temper should always get penalized right away, no waiting period.

Three, I'm glad this thread is reopened because tennis is a great sport.
_____

"Apply the rules in a positive manner, ban and fine all the tennis coaches cut coaching. They could hire couple people with video cameras and apply the rules for all. By doing what they're doing right now they ask for trouble, like we just saw.

So in a way the US Tennis Association is responsible for all that mess.
They screwed up that rule big time. Revisit the books (ruling books) and improve accordingly.

Serena and Naomi are the victims, we all are. The true culprit is the US Tennis Association...without a single drop of doubt. This rule is completely flawed. ...The World Tennis Association."

Then they would ban every coach since every coach coaches.

Also, they have actually moved in the other direction and allow at some tournaments for coaches to visit the player on the sideline in between sets. So, tennis is going in the direction of allowing coaching, not adding penalties for coaching. I don't like that rule since I think the players need to be able to think for themselves, but they are probably reacting to the fact that everyone gets coaching during the match.

 

[dminches]

And that coaching represents the single most often enforced violation of the rules.

Peter, while that may be true, it is called maybe 5% (my estimate) of time. So, even though players get called for coaching more often than, let's say, smashing racquets, it is called a very small percentage of the time that it occurs.

 

[NorthStar]

Then they would ban every coach since every coach coaches.

Also, they have actually moved in the other direction and allow at some tournaments for coaches to visit the player on the sideline in between sets. So, tennis is going in the direction of allowing coaching, not adding penalties for coaching. I don't like that rule since I think the players need to be able to think for themselves, but they are probably reacting to the fact that everyone gets coaching during the match.

A boxer get coached, and without penalties.
Tennis is not boxing, but it's very similar in analysing your opponent's weaknesses as the match progresses, and letting know your protégé. It's part of the game.
Serena's French coach was right in everything he said; for him and for me, Carlos Ramos the umpire went overboard, lost his sense of fairness and good common sense, his equilibrium job. It cannot be undone or emotionally justified with true fairness. I'm sure Carlos is going to do some serious soul searching here.
Serena is right to not want ever see him again in the courts she plays in.
Me I think Carlos Ramos is a frustrated man inside, who wants to be different than the rest.

Their rules about coaching are not good, they are terrible. It's their responsibility to this sport to have rules that work for everyone. Carlos Ramos went above the norm when he followed that rule by the book here and gave a warning to Serena. Carlos Ramos the umpire failed, the US Tennis Association failed, the WTA failed. I put the blame of this entire saga there first. Serena was fed up, and you just don't provoke the girl.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, while that may be true, it is called maybe 5% (my estimate) of time. So, even though players get called for coaching more often than, let's say, smashing racquets, it is called a very small percentage of the time that it occurs.

That is a good point. The fact that it is called though, and more often than other violations, does give some context and adds facts to the discussion. So often, these discussions are governed by emotions. It took USA Today to bring up some of these statistics. The Vox piece and all others that I have read, simply did not report those statistics or ignored them for their own biased reasons. That was my point.

Ideally, I would prefer no coaching during the match. I played a lot of tennis in the past, my kids play a lot of sports, and I have umpired badminton matches. Coaching is often allowed between games or during time outs. Parent coaching is a huge problem which I see a lot in kids sports, particularly in soccer, lacrosse and sailing. I like the purity of two tennis players relying on their own instincts, talent and brains during a match, but I see how most coaches and players break these rules. So, if it can not be enforced, and both the players and coaches want the coaching, then I am fine with professional tennis moving in that direction as long as there is a common rule and everyone abides by it and the umpires enforce it fairly and equally.

 

[NorthStar]

Peter, you have a fair voice: What would you have done if you...
1. Were a voter in the World Tennis Association regarding coaching from the tennis coaches during the matches?
2. Were the umpire instead of Carlos Ramos?
3. Were Serena Williams?

 

[PeterA]

Peter, you have a fair voice: What would you have done if you...
1. Were a voter in the World Tennis Association regarding coaching from the tennis coaches during the matches?
2. Were the umpire instead of Carlos Ramos?
3. Were Serena Williams?

Thanks Bob.

1. I would have asked about the history and positions of all concerned parties. Then I would have asked for and listened to the arguments from all possible sides. Then I would vote my conscience for what is best for the game of tennis.

2. I would have met with both players before the match and quietly explained that no coaching is allowed and warn them softly then and there that if I see any, I will make an announcement and issue a warning for each offense. I would have issued a violation for the racquet smashing. I would have immediately given a soft, unofficial, warning to Serena if she verbally abused me right at the start and then any perceived infraction from that point on I would have given her an official violation. I would have made it clear that the rules are the rules and that she is in control of her behavior.

3. I would have acted like the professional athlete she is, the role model she is, that is with respect to the umpire, her opponent, the audience, the kids watching on TV, and for the game itself. This is history in the making and she has a loud voice in the sport. And I would not have made an issue during the match of grievances I may have with the men's game, or other injustices from which she may feel she suffers. All this woman's stuff, working mother stuff, unfairness about the men's game, double standards, anger at life etc. - it has no place on the court during a match. This other stuff, all of Serena's many causes, should be addressed by her off court, between tournaments, and during the off season. She has a voice and people will listen to her if they respect her. I would have tried to be above all of that and played the game.

Of course, this is all with the benefit of hindsight, and I have no idea the kind of pressure these athletes are under. Nor could I ever walk in Serena Williams' shoes. But, and this is important, Naomi Osaka may also have views and opinions about gender issues, and injustices based on race/gender or whatever also. The difference is that she and many other professional female tennis players behave better than Williams does. They can do it. She obviously can't and she will be viewed differently now because of it. People can blame Ramos all they want, but Serena was in control of her own actions, and she will be remembered for how she acted that day. I don't have any sympathy for her.

I am sorry for Osaka, but somehow I am optimistic that she is above all of this and I do think that we will see much from her. She, and others like her, are the future of tennis. She is a real talent. Serena could reflect on the way
Osaka behaved during the match and learn a thing or two. It would do her well.

 

[NorthStar]

You've said it very nicely with fairness, intelligence and righteousness.
Rising good above all the tumults in life is the sign of true champions.

 

[jeff1225]

Men an women are all equal, no doubt. That coaching rule should be abolished once and for all, or executed by the books each and every time for both competitors, males and females...no distinction of their sex. The WTA needs to also revisit their clothing rules.

Wow, are we passionate or not about tennis! Sure we are. Tennis for me is like golf, and both tennis and golf are class act sports, where good manners are part of the game, any sports.
But tennis and golf have that extra higher class, like in audio. :b

In tennis, at the Grand Slams, men and woman are not equal. Men play more sets, use different balls, and draw larger TV audiences. This is the one sport where woman have it a lot better and easier.

 

[jeff1225]

 

[NorthStar]

In tennis, at the Grand Slams, men and woman are not equal. Men play more sets, use different balls, and draw larger TV audiences. This is the one sport where woman have it a lot better and easier.

I didn't know they were using different balls.
And men drawing larger audiences for the Grand Slams, my Mom can see that. My Mom is a huge fan of Men tennis, best Mom in the world. Same with my Dad, he was a big fan of Men tennis. ...And I too, and so many many more close relatives and friends and other family members.

Equal was meant in a way of human rights.

Jeffrey, Carlos Ramos made just over $600 US for umpiring that match.
Those guys work for peanuts, and endure all the heat and fury.
Nobody talks about that. If I was part of their association I would suggest some changes here too.