Speaker Crossover Question

[JPChristie_77]

Apologies for this question as I know Crossover inquiries are a Pandora’s Box of response at times but after 2-3 weeks of reading articles, watching videos, and going back on these boards; I am still stumped on something Crossover related and hope someone can help me out (being better safe than sorry here).

I just recently upgraded my home theater setup which consists of the Denon AVR-S750H, Klipsch HT-50 5.0 speaker set, and a Yamaha NS-SW050 subwoofer (previously I had a 6 ohm Pioneer w/a passive Sub).

Initially when I set everything up via Audyssey, everything sounded good except for the fact that vocals out of the center speaker had little clarity and was hard to understand. I purchased the Audyssey MultEQ app and ran another calibration which resolved that issue. As close to perfect as everything almost sounds, I can tell that there are some high-end frequencies that exist from the 5.0 setup whenever the subwoofer is not operating in tandem (i.e. a dialogue drive show/movie in example).

As to the Crossover settings, Audyssey put everything at 120 Hz (of course the LPF is defaulted there as well). I think those duplicate numbers are working against each other to create a separated sound field vs blending into one another as they should. I have a few concerns with where to go next to resolve.

My speaker range is 120 Hz-23 kHz for the 4 and 125 Hz-23 kHz for the Center. I have seen in multiple places that you shouldn’t lower your Crossovers below what Audyssey establishes them at but before I did the calibration from the app, I had both higher and lower numbers than 120 so I am unsure of what would be safe or effective at this point (this is where my lack of Crossover understanding comes into play).

The Denon AVR goes from 120 Hz to 150 Hz so I really can’t take things higher up. I also do not want to wind up back where dialogue out of the Center is a strain either. Other than this final piece of fine-tuning, I am very happy with how everything is sounding (and music outside of shows/movies sound perfect already). If anyone has advice on how I can potentially shore this up, it would be appreciated.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

Apologies for this question as I know Crossover inquiries are a Pandora’s Box of response at times but after 2-3 weeks of reading articles, watching videos, and going back on these boards; I am still stumped on something Crossover related and hope someone can help me out (being better safe than sorry here).

I just recently upgraded my home theater setup which consists of the Denon AVR-S750H, Klipsch HT-50 5.0 speaker set, and a Yamaha NS-SW050 subwoofer (previously I had a 6 ohm Pioneer w/a passive Sub).

Initially when I set everything up via Audyssey, everything sounded good except for the fact that vocals out of the center speaker had little clarity and was hard to understand. I purchased the Audyssey MultEQ app and ran another calibration which resolved that issue. As close to perfect as everything almost sounds, I can tell that there are some high-end frequencies that exist from the 5.0 setup whenever the subwoofer is not operating in tandem (i.e. a dialogue drive show/movie in example).

As to the Crossover settings, Audyssey put everything at 120 Hz (of course the LPF is defaulted there as well). I think those duplicate numbers are working against each other to create a separated sound field vs blending into one another as they should. I have a few concerns with where to go next to resolve.

My speaker range is 120 Hz-23 kHz for the 4 and 125 Hz-23 kHz for the Center. I have seen in multiple places that you shouldn’t lower your Crossovers below what Audyssey establishes them at but before I did the calibration from the app, I had both higher and lower numbers than 120 so I am unsure of what would be safe or effective at this point (this is where my lack of Crossover understanding comes into play).

The Denon AVR goes from 120 Hz to 150 Hz so I really can’t take things higher up. I also do not want to wind up back where dialogue out of the Center is a strain either. Other than this final piece of fine-tuning, I am very happy with how everything is sounding (and music outside of shows/movies sound perfect already). If anyone has advice on how I can potentially shore this up, it would be appreciated.

Hi, that does sound like a glitch in the software. There should be a complete silence in the speakers whether the subwoofer is on, or not. I think you should contact either Audyssey or Denon about that. The general audience here might lack the expertise to tackle such a specific issue. That's what I would do.

 

[JPChristie_77]

I don't think there's an issue in that regard-- I did not mean to insinuate there is a high hum or something along those lines without the sub. I simply mean that it feels to my ears that there is too much treble with the way Audyssey equalized my room. I have been working on it and tried several things that have gotten me closer (boosted the Sub volume a bit, pushed the center level up a peg, switched to an alternate high frequency roll off in the app, etc). Last night I experimented with the Flat vs Reference midrange compensation which proved to be both a blessing and a curse. I have been using Reference since that is where the calibration locked in and with it off, it certainly kills some of the high-end clarity I experience with it on. It also made me realize though with my previous antiquated setup that it ran Flat and my ears are prob more used to that. Since the app allows you to control that per speaker set, my next step is to turn it off for the front and rears (Flat) and keep it on (Reference) for the Center. This will keep the dialog clear coming from the Center but the entire system won't be outputting that squeaky clean sound when everything else is in play either. Ultimately I'm just searching for a slightly better blend of highs and lows right now and I am hoping this might be the final piece in that.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

I don't think there's an issue in that regard-- I did not mean to insinuate there is a high hum or something along those lines without the sub. I simply mean that it feels to my ears that there is too much treble with the way Audyssey equalized my room. I have been working on it and tried several things that have gotten me closer (boosted the Sub volume a bit, pushed the center level up a peg, switched to an alternate high frequency roll off in the app, etc). Last night I experimented with the Flat vs Reference midrange compensation which proved to be both a blessing and a curse. I have been using Reference since that is where the calibration locked in and with it off, it certainly kills some of the high-end clarity I experience with it on. It also made me realize though with my previous antiquated setup that it ran Flat and my ears are prob more used to that. Since the app allows you to control that per speaker set, my next step is to turn it off for the front and rears (Flat) and keep it on (Reference) for the Center. This will keep the dialog clear coming from the Center but the entire system won't be outputting that squeaky clean sound when everything else is in play either. Ultimately I'm just searching for a slightly better blend of highs and lows right now and I am hoping this might be the final piece in that.

Oh, I get it now. Let me ask you this: do you have any acoustic treatment in your room? How does it look? Is it empty?

 

[JPChristie_77]

No acoustic treatment and the room is not empty.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

No acoustic treatment and the room is not empty.

It happens that room acoustics boost the sound in a way that makes the sound perceived as more tilted towards the high frequencies. Have you tried moving the speakers around the room? Sometimes a few inches can make or break the sound.

 

[JPChristie_77]

My room is pretty locked down in the sense I don't have options to maneuver things around. However I have enjoyed the same setup for 15 years or so, thus I don't think placement is at issue. After continuous troubleshooting, I am coming to realize that Audyssey's Dynamic Equalizer may be the culprit. Overall. everything sounds so much better with it on but the way it is adjusting particular frequencies isn't jiving with my hearing. I've run additional calibrations and other than some minor level tinkering, I am happy with the base setup (levels, distances, crossovers, etc). Mid-Range Compensation is now off and I've switched EQ from Reference to Flat while trying to keep DEQ in play. I do not want to go down the road of adjusting each speaker set manually (EQ) but can't live with not being able to watch things at the volumes I'm used to either (without side effect). The level of options avail with this receiver is many levels beyond my previous ones that it is taking a minute to land on my personal sweet spot.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

My room is pretty locked down in the sense I don't have options to maneuver things around. However I have enjoyed the same setup for 15 years or so, thus I don't think placement is at issue. After continuous troubleshooting, I am coming to realize that Audyssey's Dynamic Equalizer may be the culprit. Overall. everything sounds so much better with it on but the way it is adjusting particular frequencies isn't jiving with my hearing. I've run additional calibrations and other than some minor level tinkering, I am happy with the base setup (levels, distances, crossovers, etc). Mid-Range Compensation is now off and I've switched EQ from Reference to Flat while trying to keep DEQ in play. I do not want to go down the road of adjusting each speaker set manually (EQ) but can't live with not being able to watch things at the volumes I'm used to either (without side effect). The level of options avail with this receiver is many levels beyond my previous ones that it is taking a minute to land on my personal sweet spot.

Fingers crossed that you'll get it right soon : ) It is kinda fun, isn't it?

 

[Robh3606]

Just reading through this. If your reference is set to flat that would make things sound bright especially as you turn things up. A suggestion would be to change the target curve to a sloping curve with a bit of bass boost like the "Harman Curve".

Rob

 

[JPChristie_77]

Agreed the Flat accentuates the highs more than the Reference setting so I have locked Reference in place for those reasons going forward. While there is certainly merit to the Harman Curve, I have never taken a liking to it personally since it is more bass heavy and takes the shine off of music and such with the low-end treble. My car has a 13 band equalizer and I have almost always landed on more of a check-mark curve where the bass and vocals semi-align and the treble goes a tick above both but not enough to drown either out. I am not sure how that would translate to movies and such however. In the meantime, I am doing some experiments with the frequency adjustments that the app allows for instead of keeping it full range which is the default. Everything sounds great in a vacuum but when watching movies at high volumes, there is something off-putting at the high end which results in some ear ringing afterwards. I am pretty sure it is tied to the Dynamic EQ being on at this point but I am trying to find and work around it before shutting it off completely and starting over from scratch (because everything else is right there and music sounds perfect). If my frequency tests fail, I may opt for curve adjustment at the high end (not to Harman level but going in that direction) to see if that helps.

 

[Robh3606]

Yeah I agree I use some HF attenuation 1dB from flat 700hz and up but it's linear not slopping. Bass boost less and starts lower in frequency. There are several curves so you need to find what works in your room. They are good starting points.

Good luck!

Rob

 

[JPChristie_77]

Just an update that I continue to struggle with the brightness of this receiver. I have narrowed the issue down to the Reference Mult-EQ, so it is a result of how the calibration is being executed. I love the way the Dynamic EQ sounds in and of itself, but the Reference setting is at issue as even with Dynamic EQ turned off. When I got a new car a few years ago, I had the same issue with the factory setup (which was a Harman Kardon) as it was way to treble heavy and harsh on the ear (I flipped it out for a Pioneer that I had more autonomy over). I do not have the what-with to manually equalize everything from the ground up and lowering the frequency from the app seems to suck all the life from the sound (boxing it up to where it can't breathe). I have not been able to land on a decent frequency where I'm not dealing with one side of the coin or the other (and it doesn't help that the app isn't super precise on the slide). My next step is to try tricking the receiver through some oddball mic setups, to see if I can't get more of a rounded Reference than I have currently been putting out. I've really got Distance and Levels locked between the number of things I have done, so everything is within ear shot if I can somehow kill whatever the shrill highness is that is coming off of the sound field. If anyone can think of anything else, I am open to ideas (and thanks for following/reading).

 

[Robh3606]

You shouldn't have to EQ above the shrouder frequency if your speakers are relatively flat and have good off axis response. Did you try just looking there?? It shouldn't be that hard to null out the major peaks with notch filters provided you can set frequency, Q and depth of the notch.

Leave the rest alone. I had an early DIRAC version and had the same experience where it would completely collapse and seem to compress the sound stage. Ended up not using it as I thought the non eq'd response sounded better.

Rob

 

[JPChristie_77]

I just want to thank everyone who offered advice during this overly lengthy period. It dawned on me when this all started and I had the muddled vocals out of the center (before buying and switching to the app), that perhaps the bright Reference was coming from the app and I would be better served returning to a Receiver calibration instead. I did a pair of "new" calibrations. The first was using the app to have as backup in the event the Receiver version didn't work out (using a variety of new methods including different mic heights/placements not necessarily to the letter of instruction, removing the covers from all the speakers first, etc). Obviously once you do a Receiver calibration, you lose app control since that one isn't transferable. One thing both of these revised calibrations did was open up my Crossover options so I had more bandwidth to play with. I did lose the brightness on the Receiver calibration but I also backtracked to losing some clarity on the Center vocals. However because of the Crossover flexibility, I was able to resolve that piece through some trial and error there and it appears the ear fatigue has completely subsided since doing all of this. I know everyone's experience is different but as awesome as the app is from an autonomy perspective, the off-putting Reference sets on every calibration I did could not be eliminated. While I will still have to do some tinkering to land where I want going forward, at least my primary issue has been dealt with and I was able to rectify the center clarity this time as well. I am not sure why the Receiver and App would produce difference Reference settings for Mult-EQ (regardless if Dynamic EQ is on or off) but no one can tell me it doesn't. Initially the App settings sounded so much better to me but in the end it proved to me more trouble than was worth. If this all helps someone else with the same issue somewhere down the line, then it was all worth it. Thanks again everyone.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

I just want to thank everyone who offered advice during this overly lengthy period. It dawned on me when this all started and I had the muddled vocals out of the center (before buying and switching to the app), that perhaps the bright Reference was coming from the app and I would be better served returning to a Receiver calibration instead. I did a pair of "new" calibrations. The first was using the app to have as backup in the event the Receiver version didn't work out (using a variety of new methods including different mic heights/placements not necessarily to the letter of instruction, removing the covers from all the speakers first, etc). Obviously once you do a Receiver calibration, you lose app control since that one isn't transferable. One thing both of these revised calibrations did was open up my Crossover options so I had more bandwidth to play with. I did lose the brightness on the Receiver calibration but I also backtracked to losing some clarity on the Center vocals. However because of the Crossover flexibility, I was able to resolve that piece through some trial and error there and it appears the ear fatigue has completely subsided since doing all of this. I know everyone's experience is different but as awesome as the app is from an autonomy perspective, the off-putting Reference sets on every calibration I did could not be eliminated. While I will still have to do some tinkering to land where I want going forward, at least my primary issue has been dealt with and I was able to rectify the center clarity this time as well. I am not sure why the Receiver and App would produce difference Reference settings for Mult-EQ (regardless if Dynamic EQ is on or off) but no one can tell me it doesn't. Initially the App settings sounded so much better to me but in the end it proved to me more trouble than was worth. If this all helps someone else with the same issue somewhere down the line, then it was all worth it. Thanks again everyone.

Thanks for the feedback! It might be a lifesaver for other users in the future!