Platter materials, mats and weights

[Loheswaran]

I am curious as to peoples experience with turntable mats, weights, and platter materials. I need to get a mat for my DD, and can't source a Sony OL2k.

I will add that I raise this slightly tongue on cheek insofar as every single audio forum has been drawn into idler/belt/dd/clockwork/windup/voodoo ESP drive system debate, and people seem to be forgetting other fundamental things.

Please tell me your experiences.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Loheswaran, against my better instincts I've moved from belt drive/pivoted arm to direct rim drive/air bearing linear tracking, and to add insult to injury LOL, I've taken my tt's designer's idea of a TOTALLY undamped lp. I have his Reso Mat, a series of soft domes glued to my platter, upon which the lp just rests on. No mat, no periphery ring, no clamp, no centre weight, no vacuum hold down. The lp just lies there, undamped, and the cartidge rides the grooves. But it is separate from the platter, hence not absorbing much of any vibrations imparted to the platter by the rim drive/motor.
This goes so against the current thinking of making the lp as flat and fixed as poss when playing, and bonding it almost to the platter, so that just watching the lp sit and revolve unrestrained just seems, well, wrong.
But if you listen to Touraj of Vertere, he believes that even when artficially held down, most of the lp surface STILL doesn't fully contact the platter, and mechanical stresses are introduced into the vinyl structure, maybe negatively influencing sound.
Vic's system is the diametric opposite, and is only impractical w/severely warped lps, of which I only have a handful.
Result of all of this, incl the Reso Mat? The most alive, vibrant, dynamic and clean sound I've ever heard from analog. And the Reso Mat is having a say.

 

[Ron Resnick]

But if you listen to Touraj of Vertere, he believes that even when artficially held down, most of the lp surface STILL doesn't fully contact the platter, and mechanical stresses are introduced into the vinyl structure, maybe negatively influencing sound.

Yes, Touraj is very adamant about this. His view is that the tonearm should be designed to be able to ride record warps with aplomb.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, it just seems counter intuitive not to lock that vinyl down, but the open breezy nature of my sound indicates that my designer Vic, and Touraj, are really onto something here.
A big reason why I hate vacuum hold down is that any dirt/dust/grit in the platter must be ground into the grooves, esp w/something as powerful as the AF1 one. One can clean that platter furiously, but I just don't like this. Lp's are so hard to look after optimally as it is.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I do not have a clue as to who is correct. I avoid component design debate threads because I believe that the implementation is far more important than the theory.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, there's no theory in whether you get grit in yr grooves. Vacuum hold down can only make this happen.

 

[kach22i]

I am curious as to peoples experience with turntable mats, weights, and platter materials.

I've done a lot of experimenting and tweaking of my turntable, and have come away with a few thoughts.

1. Anything you put on or under your turntable affects the sound.

2. These materials will typically impart their character into the sound.


A little experiment/comparison a few years back:

Showdown; Direct Drive verses Belt Drive - two oldies go at it
http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...t-Drive-verses-Belt-Drive-two-oldies-go-at-it


What's under your TT affects sound?
http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...der-your-TT-affects-sound&highlight=materials

Hey Bill, I agree with what you are saying. It follows my own experiments of material under my turntable and speakers.

Wood: can sound warm but grainy

Steel: can sound strong but cold

Glass: can sound clear but with glare

Rubber/Sorbogel: can add lots of bounce to music but spongy sound.

Brass/Bronze: wish a had a semi truck full of it - expensive.

Of course, the topic of turntable stands is all so important because of course the materials from top to bottom all add or detract from the character of the sound.

DIY Turntable Rack - Maple Butcher Block + Aluminum I-Beams
http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...er-Block-Aluminum-I-Beams&highlight=materials

The cork I've tried under vinyl wasn't very thick and was all dried out, but I suspect just isn't dense enough for my tastes, similar to felt.

The materials used in making actual musical instruments hold the most promise in my opinion.

 

[microstrip]

I do not have a clue as to who is correct. I avoid component design debate threads because I believe that the implementation is far more important than the theory.

Yes. Component design threads should be more a participated exposition than a classical debate.

In theory the technically perfect turntable would be an optical one - the ELP turntable http://elpj.com/ "Uncompressed, Non-Digitized, Pure Analog Audio & No Physical Contact".

However we can argue that the sound engineers anticipated the type of sound created by mechanical turntables and balanced the recording for it.

The evolution of the Oracle turntable design is an excellent case study for anyone interested in platter materials and mats.

 

[kach22i]

The evolution of the Oracle turntable design is an excellent case study for anyone interested in platter materials and mats.

Could you provide us with a short run down of that history?

Found this in 2010:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/oracle-delphi-mk-vi-record-player-tas-206/

Also new on the Mk VI are a Urethane drive belt (made by the same outfit that supplies A.J. Conti at Basis) and a hard-acrylic platter-mat that Oracle claims makes for a superior impedance match with vinyl discs. Though relatively lightweight, the Delphi’s 8.8-pound aluminum platter is constructed for maximum rigidity, minimum resonance, and a superior “fly-wheel” effect, with most of its mass distributed around its outer edge. The Delphi Mk VI also uses the same screw-down “record clamp” system that Oracle pioneered in the original Delphi Mk I.

I once tried removing the thick rubber mat on one of my turntables and replacing it with an old record (butting record to record BIC record changer style). I don't claim it being an well executed experiment, but the results were not promising, so it went no further.

 

[microstrip]

Could you provide us with a short run down of that history?
(...)

Just a few I remember from my Oracle's:

MK1 - a sticky rubber that would often come with the record.
MK2 - a less sticky brilliant one.
MK3 an acrylic mat
MK IV a composite platter sandwiched between aluminum layers with integral mat.

The rubber "wave trap" around the platter also changed along the versions.

No experience with latest Oracle's.

We can find the Oracle manuals and brochures at the vinlyengine site http://www.vinylengine.com/library/oracle/delphi.shtml

 

[Loheswaran]

Yes. Component design threads should be more a participated exposition than a classical debate.

In theory the technically perfect turntable would be an optical one - the ELP turntable http://elpj.com/ "Uncompressed, Non-Digitized, Pure Analog Audio & No Physical Contact".

However we can argue that the sound engineers anticipated the type of sound created by mechanical turntables and balanced the recording for it.

The evolution of the Oracle turntable design is an excellent case study for anyone interested in platter materials and mats.

Hi Microstrip - I totally agree with your first remark in particular.

Out of interest how did the sound change over the different mats used. That may be able to assist me greatly as I am convinced each mat has particular pros and cons.

Spiritofmusic - I think you can ass the Ringmat which also has minimal contact and uses a very light central disc - more like a literal 'paperweight'

Please keep the ideas coming guys.

BTW have any of you used the heavy mat made by Len Gregory the Cartridgeman.

 

[ddk]

I am curious as to peoples experience with turntable mats, weights, and platter materials. I need to get a mat for my DD, and can't source a Sony OL2k.

I will add that I raise this slightly tongue on cheek insofar as every single audio forum has been drawn into idler/belt/dd/clockwork/windup/voodoo ESP drive system debate, and people seem to be forgetting other fundamental things.

Please tell me your experiences.

In my experience mats do have a strong influence on the sound of any decent tt but I haven't come across a universal type that fits all tables. In your shoes I'd trust the Sony engineers and experiment with similar mat type that the tt originally came with. Your 950's mat might work just fine with it...

david

 

[BruceD]

Please keep the ideas coming guys..

I found the Auditorium Mat from Germany to be excellent--worth an Audition

BruceD