one dedicated line or two?

john333

New Member
Jul 28, 2016
6
0
0
#1
I have 2 dedicated lines,but I think that all system on one line sound better.
I have 2 monoblocks ,preamp,phono stage and turntable.
the turntable with controller are on one line,and the other gears on the second.
does it logical?
 

DaveC

[Industry Expert]
Nov 16, 2014
2,177
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36
#2
Yes, it has to do with grounding.

Multiple dedicated lines are almost always implemented poorly wrt grounding, leaving more resistance between grounds of components on each line, which causes more noise as Ohm's law, V=IR also applies to ground currents. Obviously, if we reduce R we reduce V, which in this case is noise voltage. Lower R = lower noise.

To solve this you need to combine grounds as close to the system as possible. There are 3 ways to do this:

1. Install a sub-panel as close to your receptacles as possible.

2. Use a power distribution system for each line that includes a ground connection, keep the power distributors as close together as possible and connect them using a heavy gauge braided or litz design ground strap.

Or 3, buy an aftermarket grounding system that will accomplish the same thing and maybe also have some somewhat effective ground filtration.

Also, most cables are don't take this into account and both ICs and PCs often have inadequate, higher gauge/thinner ground connections, when in fact a good cable will have heavy gauge ground connections. For 1 and 2 to work as effectively as possible the cables need to be properly designed and many are not with the ground connection being an afterthought and PCs using super-heavy hot/neutral with a much smaller ground wire. This, along with the poor grounding you get from a typical multi-line installation, creates a market for #3.
 
Oct 1, 2010
910
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16
Cleveland Ohio
#3
DaveC would have nailed it if he had only stopped after point #1.

* * * * * * * * * * * *
Or maybe I'm misreading/misunderstanding points #2 and #3.
'ground' is such a confusing word.
 
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DaveC

[Industry Expert]
Nov 16, 2014
2,177
0
36
#4
2. If a subpanel isn't practical code doesn't allow combining grounds of multiple lines in the wall, so if you use power distributors with ground connections you can side step that issue.

3. A grounding system, not necessarily an expensive one, can also reduce R.

Both are just other ways to combine grounds at the system rather than at the main panel without relying on IC and PC ground connections to be sufficient.
 
Jul 25, 2012
2,553
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NY
#5
Use TWO lines. One for the power amps and the other for everything else.

STAR grounding/bonding of all components so there is ONE single solitary ground for everything.

Star grounding can be done extremely easily and inexpensively and will eliminate any noise.
 

PeterA

Active Member
Dec 7, 2011
4,869
9
38
North Shore of Boston
#7
If u are using mono amps 3 lines....
This is what I do. One 20amp circuit to each amp, and a third to my rack/front end components.
 

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 26, 2015
2,554
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36
Eastern WA
#8
So many extra lines for equipment that doesn't need the power.... It's purely because of problems within the equipment and all the shifts on the lines (AC power from wall). A lot of it can be corrected. In fact it'll sound better with correction than just adding lines.
 

john333

New Member
Jul 28, 2016
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#11
I have mono blocks,and can work with 2 lines only.
one of them for the amps .
what is the minimum thickness of the wires from the breaker box?
btw,230V here.
 

RogerD

Active Member
May 23, 2010
3,141
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36
BiggestLittleCity
#12
I have mono blocks,and can work with 2 lines only.
one of them for the amps .
what is the minimum thickness of the wires from the breaker box?
btw,230V here.
Ok so you will have 2 duplexes or 4 outlets. plug each mono block into a opposing duplex and use the remaining 2 outlets for your preamp and a multiple power strip or conditioner. Use Romex 10 for your wire.
 
Oct 1, 2010
910
0
16
Cleveland Ohio
#13
I have mono blocks,and can work with 2 lines only.
one of them for the amps .
what is the minimum thickness of the wires from the breaker box?
btw,230V here.
What country?
What size breaker in the box?

With twice the voltage, you only use half the current, so the wires (cores) are smaller.

Don't think minimum diameter, think one size larger than recommended.
 
Oct 1, 2010
910
0
16
Cleveland Ohio
#14
In a typical 120V hi-fi system, I would go with one 20 Amp circuit. Using one size larger cable from the main breaker box to the wall outlets.
In a large system, I would run a feeder from the main breaker box to a small breaker box near the equipment, then as many 20A circuits as needed.

If a star ground system, uses more Safety Ground wire than the Hot or Neutral, then you did it wrong.
 
Jul 25, 2012
2,553
0
36
NY
#15
In a typical 120V hi-fi system, I would go with one 20 Amp circuit. Using one size larger cable from the main breaker box to the wall outlets.
In a large system, I would run a feeder from the main breaker box to a small breaker box near the equipment, then as many 20A circuits as needed.

If a star ground system, uses more Safety Ground wire than the Hot or Neutral, then you did it wrong.



Could you explain that.
 
Oct 1, 2010
910
0
16
Cleveland Ohio
#16
In any AC power system the Hot, Neutral and Safety Ground should follow the same path all in close proximity to each other.
In any hi-fi system, it is good to minimize the lengths of AC power runs from component to component.

So you run the circuit to a junction box in a central location (relative to the hi-fi components). Then you split the H, N & SG to the outlet boxes. That junction box is the star point. You can also have sub stars.

It's the shorter length of the SG from component to component that's most important. Only one SG per circuit back to the main (or sub) breaker panel.
 

Chuck Lee

New Member
Feb 6, 2015
70
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0
#17
I like to use a separate dedicated line for all the digital gear.Also another line for the TT and phono pre.The third line is for the mono amps.
There is no hum or noise doing it this way in my system.
I use ancient Acoustat servo amps and there is no tube noise .
30 amp line for the amps, 2 X 20 amp for the rest.
#10 Romex.
When I listen to digital I go thru a separate pre (passive) to the power amps.
Analog is a separate phono pre( Steelhead) to the power amps.
I like to keep the digital away from the analog.
The digital gear is even on a separate rack.
 

Chuck Lee

New Member
Feb 6, 2015
70
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0
#18
I bought a Torus balanced RM 20, and did the necessary electrical breaker stuff- double 20 amp-10 gauge romex.
I plugged everything into it,even the digital.So I'm down to one dedicated line instead of three.
This I felt was just as good as running the three lines.If it would have been a step backwards in sound I wouldn't have done this.
So the Torus was doing a good job.
But I didn't know how good things could get until I ran a dedicated Ground back to my water pipe from the massive ground post on the Torus.( I used all three wires from my unused 10 amp former dedicated line that was disconnected from the panel.
All the stuff I've read about Entreq like products and elaborate dedicated grounding schemes now makes sense to me.
The Torus has really woken up my system since I ran a dedicated ground from it.
I hear more inner detail, more full bodied sound which I've read comes from less background noise or haze .
One dedicated line and a dedicated ground using the balanced Torus" in my system" outperforms the multiple dedicated lines without dedicated grounds I had been using.
 
Oct 1, 2010
910
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16
Cleveland Ohio
#19
The Safety Ground/Protective Earth wire should run in very close proximity to the Hot & Neutral wires back to the main breaker box. (panel board)
If connecting it to a water pipe changes something, than have a good electrician look for problems (maybe a lost Neutral connection).
 

Chuck Lee

New Member
Feb 6, 2015
70
0
0
#20
The Safety Ground/Protective Earth wire should run in very close proximity to the Hot & Neutral wires back to the main breaker box. (panel board)
If connecting it to a water pipe changes something, than have a good electrician look for problems (maybe a lost Neutral connection).
Sorry if I have confused you.
Are you familiar with the balanced Torus RM 20?
It is connected on it's own dedicated line,using double pole 20 amp breaker it's on two phases at the panel.The dedicated line is wired correctly at the panel.In this instance, the Neutral and hot leg are wired into the double 20 amp breaker, the ground isat the ground buss bar in the panel.This is how you wire the Torus RM 20 balanced.It is not your normal plug it into the wall type of conditioner.
The torus sees two hot wire at it's 20 amp IEC plug plus the ground wire.Everything as it is supposed to be.
What is nice about the Torus is that all the power receptacles 's grounds go back to the external ground post.Similar but larger than you find on phono stages to ground your TT.
This is where I run another 3 strands of #10 romex back to my water pipe which is also most likely where my main panel is grounded outside the house.So in addition to the conventional grounding of my gear to the Torus and back to the panel,I also run a dedicated ground from the Torus back to earth ground.This is what has made the difference,the extra ground wire.The last piece of the puzzle.It's the icing on the cake.

There were no noise issues before, no hums no buzzes, not even when I ran three separate lines.
What the extra ground wire does from the Torus is what I assume the Entreq and other grounding devices/schemes do-which is to drain away some more hash that is being pumped back into the system from each component thru the ground.

I hope this helps you understand,but you have to know how the balanced version of the Torus RM 20 works.
 

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